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UK prisons full - now where to put them?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Depends how many more you build I guess!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When the vast majority of prisoners serve the entire length of their sentences.

    That's a rather circular argument.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Many existing prisons are old and do not make efficient use of space, I'd have thought capacity could be increased through some rebuilding. If there's still not enough space build a few extra prisons in the middle of nowhere - out in the country in Wales or Scotland.

    btw, how many prisons have you visited?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As Michael Howard proved and as has been shown in the US locking up persistent offenders cuts crime - burglars, rapists, conmen, murderers all pose a risk to the law-abiding public and should be locked up to protect the public.

    Sorry, what? How exactly did Michael Howard prove that? How has it been shown in the US?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Ah yes we're talking about prisons and you bring in anti-semitism.

    No, you were actually resorting to insults...And well, given how bizarre your views are - your views on Jews for example I can't really take anything you say seriously.
    Yerascrote wrote:
    We've also given loads of reasons where it would be better and cheaper than building more prisons and you come out with that gem.

    We? You haven't given one good reason.

    Anyway Michael Howard oversaw a 15% fall in crime. (Howard introduced tough mandatory sentences...)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    btw, how many prisons have you visited?

    And the relevance of that question to my original point regarding rebuilding is...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And the relevance of that question to my original point regarding rebuilding is...?

    I'm just wondering how come you're such an authority on the efficient use of space in old prisons. How many have you visited?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, you were actually resorting to insults...And well, given how bizarre your views are - your views on Jews for example I can't really take anything you say seriously.

    Thing is though dis, I can't take you seriously for pretty much the same reasons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I'm just wondering how come you're such an authority on the efficient use of space in old prisons. How many have you visited?

    I can't remember what/where/when but the last time the shortage of spaces for prisoners came up it was reported that one solution would be to make better use of space in the existing ones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You haven't given one good reason.

    Either you're blind, stupid or both. Read the thread again. The reasons I gave are better than building more prisons. Being tougher on crime has nothing to do with building more prisons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Possesion fine, I'm a little less sure about letting the suppliers go....

    Such as GPs, employees of Boots, Superdrug, Moss Chemists etc ? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry, I will clarify, the suppliers of illegal drugs, rather than those that meet the strict requirements and are part of a well regulated market.

    Although as this thread is in reference to prison spaced I would have *thought* that was clear as generally GPs and people who work in pharmacys aren't in jail for supplying the drugs they do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When the vast majority of prisoners serve the entire length of their sentences.

    Wit han ever increasing number of people being imprisoned that is an irrelevant comment. The number of beds isn't based on the amount of time a prisoner is there, unless you also factor in the number of people inside.

    e.g. keeping Brady inside for 80 years means that you only have to have one bed for 80 years. What would you do with the next person sent down? Especially at a time when some parties are calling for more people to be sent down.

    As an aside, did you see that Connaught Barracks is due to be converted into a prison soon. In order to do so the facilities have to be improved because what is good enough for Soldiers isn't good enough for inmates.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As an aside, did you see that Connaught Barracks is due to be converted into a prison soon. In order to do so the facilities have to be improved because what is good enough for Soldiers isn't good enough for inmates.

    Improved or just changed? I presume the Barracks isnt as secure as a prison should be, and I also assume they they dont have enough seperate rooms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why should they need more separate rooms? I'm learning that prisoners get far better access to stuff than a lot of other people. Where I live it is ridiculously difficult to see an NHS dentist, the inmates in the local jail however get their dentistry completely free and don't have to wait ages for an appointment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why should they need more separate rooms?

    I was under the impression that soldiers bunked in large rooms with a big group of them (or do I just watch old war movies). I doubt you could run a prison like that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I don't think it'd be a very good idea to have large barrack-style rooms for dozens of inmates. There'd be little sleeping...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why should they need more separate rooms? I'm learning that prisoners get far better access to stuff than a lot of other people. Where I live it is ridiculously difficult to see an NHS dentist, the inmates in the local jail however get their dentistry completely free and don't have to wait ages for an appointment.

    Well prison inmates don't have any income. If you're on benefits or a low wage you also get your dental treatment completely free.

    I do agree that the state of the dental services in this country is an utter disgrace, but it really is a totally seperate issue to prisons.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,185 Skive's The Limit
    budda wrote:
    Sorry? Drink drivers not a threat to others safety?

    That's what I was thinking.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Well prison inmates don't have any income. If you're on benefits or a low wage you also get your dental treatment completely free.

    I do agree that the state of the dental services in this country is an utter disgrace, but it really is a totally seperate issue to prisons.

    It is part of the issue that prisoners get far better treatment than a portion of law abiding society though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote:
    That's what I was thinking.

    To clarify on drink drivers, as I think I already did earlier in this thread:

    There are some (admitedly not many) first time drink drive offenders who are in jail. I think that in these cases a long term driving ban alongside a re education program would be a better approach.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why should they need more separate rooms? I'm learning that prisoners get far better access to stuff than a lot of other people. Where I live it is ridiculously difficult to see an NHS dentist, the inmates in the local jail however get their dentistry completely free and don't have to wait ages for an appointment.

    You have no idea of the health problems which prisoners have, do you?

    Did you know that about 75% aren't even registered with a GP, not to mention the toll of drug/alcohol abuse. Do you understand the deprivation imapct of health (for example you are 25 times more likely to die in an accident/from poisoning if you are the child of someone who is long term unemployed...), do you understand the spiral of health conditions and crime, or the impact of mental health on crime?

    It's easy to look at the basic figures and say that prisoners get better health care. What you miss is that they actually need it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote:
    Improved or just changed? I presume the Barracks isnt as secure as a prison should be, and I also assume they they dont have enough seperate rooms.

    Both, but the sad fact is that living conditions are not the same because the rights of each group are different.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You have no idea of the health problems which prisoners have, do you?

    I'd like to think I have a vague idea, apart from anything else the thickness of prison health records give it all away quite quickly. I'm not saying that they don't need it, I am simply saying that it is an incredibly unfair system that gives those in jail better access to services than those who are law abiding.

    If the people in society got some of these services provided as well as some of the prison population do we could probably make good progress towards keeping some of them away from crime and out of jail for precisely the reasons you make.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's easy to look at the basic figures and say that prisoners get better health care. What you miss is that they actually need it.

    But don't quite a few of them bring it on themseleves and only do it because they hate prison that much?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is part of the issue that prisoners get far better treatment than a portion of law abiding society though.

    They don't though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am simply saying that it is an incredibly unfair system that gives those in jail better access to services than those who are law abiding.


    What are you talking about? How many jails have you visited? What makes you such an expert on the criminal justice system?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some facts
    52% of male prisoners and 71% of female prisoners have no qualifications at all

    67% of all prisoners were unemployed at the time of imprisonment

    Half of the 75,000 people in prison gained no qualifications at school and suffer from poor literacy and numeracy skills, according to a survey by the British Dyslexia Association. Around one fifth have hidden disabilities such as dyslexia and other learning difficulties.

    The prison service invites convicted prisoners on reception to volunteer to take a literacy test devised by the Basic Skills Agency which is approximately equivalent to the reading skills expected of 9 to 10-year-olds. The 1998 results showed that 60% had problems with literacy, and 40% had a severe literacy problem.

    In the three years preceding 1998, the prison population grew by nearly 14,000 to 65,600, while spending on inmates' education was cut by nearly £1 million.

    http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/database/stats/keystats3.html

    Three quarters of men in prison are affected by two or more mental health problems, including disorders such as schizophrenia.

    Two thirds of men in prison are diagnosed with a personality disorder and two fifths show symptoms of at least one neurotic disorder such as depression, anxiety and phobias. Among the general population less than a fifth of men are affected by these disorders.

    * Men in prison have a high rate of severe mental health problems such as schizophrenia or delusional disorders – nearly ten per cent compared to less than one per cent of the general population.

    * One in five men in prison are on prescribed medication such as anti-depressants or anti-psychotic medicine and there is evidence that the use of medication increases whilst in custody.

    * One in five male prisoners have attempted suicide at some stage in their life and the same number have previously been admitted for in-patient psychiatric care.

    http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/subsection.asp?id=317
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am simply saying that it is an incredibly unfair system that gives those in jail better access to services than those who are law abiding.

    In prison they don't have access to a GP every day, nor to a dentist. In each case they have to wait for them to visit. They can only attend hospital when they guards can take them, clinical need is not as relevant (barring life threatening cases). Most prison health is provided by nurses - as a first point of call. For the "free" population, the it's a doctor.

    Spending on Prison Health in minimal in comparison to the £1500 per person spent outside.
    If the people in society got some of these services provided as well as some of the prison population do we could probably make good progress towards keeping some of them away from crime and out of jail for precisely the reasons you make.

    It isn't that those services don't exist in the outside world, it's that the section of population we are talking about don't access them.
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