Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.

Veils and Limbo

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1889081,00.html

A few questions come to mind concerning the veil issue.

a) is he right to raise the issue at all, does it matter?

b) do you fell uneasy because of the veil (full or otherwise)

c) is there no end to the number of times the phrase 'Muslim outrage' (or some variation) will appear in the press? I personally am getting sick of it.

On a related note it appears the Pope is doing away with the concept of limbo and is happier with the idea that all children go to heaven, not just unbaptised ones.

The connection between the two issues is that they are both related to the interpretation of the ancient texts concerning the two religions.

I find it utterly bizarrethat so much thought ad human effort is put into this nonsense to be honest, the power these books (Bible and Koran) have over so many people is so strange to me, i can't rationalise at all.

Can anyone else understand the fascination with these kind of theological debates?
«13456

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the veil issue, I wish some people would think before opening their mouths. I'm talking about the people who are "outraged" that Jack Straw "would refuse" to see them if they didn't remove their veil (I'm guessing that's the tabloid version of Jack Straw politely asking muslim women to do so, and accepting it if they refused). I can understand how a lot of muslims might feel victimised, but it does nothing for your image, when you angrily react to something, without knowing the full facts. We saw it over the pope incident, and we've seen it again here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lets face it the full face covering isnt exactly great for community relations is it. But only because its an outward symbol of the seperation women choose, if they are that strict in their religion then even if you forced the veil off them they wouldnt talk to you at the bus stop.

    However, having said that I chat to the woman next door every now and then in the street (only a few words really) and she wears the full covering, its a little odd but once you know who it is there isnt a problem.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It doesn't take a genius to work out that the benefits of face to face communication are undermined by somebody covering their entire face. And lets face it, plenty of women who cover their entire face in cloth don't make the choice - they're simply adhering to the expectations of their husband and family. However if adult women wear it they should not be barred from doing so.

    But for identification and security purposes I don't think it would be unreasonable for MPs to actually refuse to see somebody wearing a full veil. And the more I think about it I think we should look at the French model and make schools secular and ban all religious paraphernalia in state schools.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im with Budda on this one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    c) is there no end to the number of times the phrase 'Muslim outrage' (or some variation) will appear in the press? I personally am getting sick of it.

    The problem is though that the press wants the Muslims to be outraged because it sounds better than 'Muslims shrug and say its not a big deal'. So they will search out those who get offended about anything and ask them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh yes, it is as much the fault of the media as with the various Muslim 'elders' or 'scholars' etc that do the raging.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But for identification and security purposes I don't think it would be unreasonable for MPs to actually refuse to see somebody wearing a full veil. And the more I think about it I think we should look at the French model and make schools secular and ban all religious paraphernalia in state schools.
    I think a better solution would be to represent the major religions within the school uniform. The police do it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think a better solution would be to represent the major religions within the school uniform. The police do it.

    The police have a duty to protect everybody and as such they must be religiously inclusive.

    I don't think state schools have that same duty. State schools imo have a main duty to provide education in an egalitarian environment; that duty would be best served through schools being free of religious paraphernalia. If parents want their kids to get an education in a religious environment they should send their kids to a religious school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that woman should have to take of their veils in some situations, but most its ok. I wouldnt want a doctor/nurse examining me if i could only see their eyes. In such cases i think it only right. In other cases, if they are doing no hassle, leave them to it. One worry i heard brought up on tv this morning is that muslim woman are being forced to wear the veils, it isnt entirely their choice, in which case is wrong. But how can we tell who wants to and whos being forced? It takes a strong woman to stand up to their community pressure, as it takes a strong teen to stand up to peer pressure. There is widely teachings on peer pressure, why not the pressure on woman to wear veils if it is happening? I think he was damn right to bring up the issue, its something that needs sorting to make something better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Firstly, the Pope abolishing the idea of limbo is very significant, and does change over 1500 years of Catholic tradition. It goes to show that Catholicism is still open to new ideas and new interpretations, and theologically it is a very important development.

    Compare and contrast this to the Moslem way of forcing women to wear a veil and hide themselves from the world. Jack Straw is completely right about the burkha, and its good to see him saying something intelligent for the first time ever. Moslem religious leaders are outraged about anything that stops them subjugating women- they were even outraged about the clampdown on female circumcision, ffs. They should be ignored as the irritating extremists that they are- there is no place in this country for pandering to Moslem extremists who wants us all in the jilbab.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Compare and contrast this to the Moslem way of forcing women to wear a veil and hide themselves from the world. Jack Straw is completely right about the burkha, and its good to see him saying something intelligent for the first time ever. Moslem religious leaders are outraged about anything that stops them subjugating women- they were even outraged about the clampdown on female circumcision, ffs. They should be ignored as the irritating extremists that they are- there is no place in this country for pandering to Moslem extremists who wants us all in the jilbab.

    Even those in the full burka often do it out of their own choice and are not the pathetic beaten down women people think.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are many branches and interpretations of Islam, just as there are of Christianity. It is as wrong to assume all Muslims favour burqas, female circumcision or even veils as to assume all Christians believe in Creationism or think there is something wrong with sex before marriage or artificial contraception.

    I don't see anything wrong in Straw asking so long as if the answer is 'no' it is left at that and respected. I'm not so comfortable with this becoming public domain as I can see a few idiots starting to demand women take their veil off when they speak to them.

    As for schools, I'm all for uniforms and no display of religious attire or accessories whatsoever. I'd like to see the abolition of all faith and religious schools too, but that's another matter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seems like there is a big hooha in the media recently about how our cultural differences actually drive us apart and result in segregation - so let's make all the jews take off their skullcaps, no turbans for the sikhs, and those dumb muslims can take off their burkhas while they're at it - and then everything will be alright? :rolleyes: i think not.......the whole thing stinks of homogenisation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seems like there is a big hooha in the media recently about how our cultural differences actually drive us apart and result in segregation - so let's make all the jews take off their skullcaps, no turbans for the sikhs, and those dumb muslims can take off their burkhas while they're at it - and then everything will be alright? :rolleyes: i think not.......the whole thing stinks of homogenisation.
    Don't forget to paint everyone white while you're at it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I believe people have the right to wear what they want. BUT people will judge them for doing so.

    Just the same as people may judge a woman for wearing a miniskirt and low cut top, some may judge women wearing the full veil as being non people.

    Headscarves are a different issue. I don't see the point of the full veil, I especially dislike seeing little children in it. How can they have chosen to wear it?

    It's not really a religious issue, more a cultural thing. You won't see women in Turkey wearing the full veil.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PussyKatty wrote:
    I don't see the point of the full veil, I especially dislike seeing little children in it. How can they have chosen to wear it?

    well did you choose your own clothes/fashion at such a young age, or was it influenced by what your parents bought for you? it's just a cultural difference that you don't understand because you were raised different, and fair enough, but it's not like these kids are somehow being mistreated because they wear a veil, is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well did you choose your own clothes/fashion at such a young age, or was it influenced by what your parents bought for you? it's just a cultural difference that you don't understand because you were raised different, and fair enough, but it's not like these kids are somehow being mistreated because they wear a veil, is it?

    Obviously I didn't pick my clothes when I was little but I wore normal kids clothes like shorts and t-shirts that I could run around and play in. How can kids make friends if they can't smile at other kids? How can they enjoy themselves if they can't run round in case their veil falls off? I've seen quite small kids wearing the long black cloak, and face veil and I think that's wrong and unnecessary.

    Yeah it's a cultural difference but I like to see kids being kids, not mini adults...it's not even about religion as in Islam taking the veil is about becoming a woman, ie puberty. I think in the cultures where women wear the face veil the women are in danger of being second class citizens...when was the last time you saw a woman in a face veil working in any sort of job? I don't think a woman with their face covered would get anywhere in my profession, which relies on people trusting me/recognising me/talking to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PussyKatty wrote:
    Obviously I didn't pick my clothes when I was little but I wore normal kids clothes

    .........yeah but that's my point, they were normal to you and the culture you were raised in, for the kids who wear veils it's normal to them in their (sub)culture....
    when was the last time you saw a woman in a face veil working in any sort of job? I don't think a woman with their face covered would get anywhere in my profession, which relies on people trusting me/recognising me/talking to me.

    yes your right, in our society we're used to seeing people's faces and so in a customer facing role you wouldn't find women wearing veils because it goes against that.......but again that's a culture issue, for example in morocco when we went to book our bus tickets and take money out at the banks the women at the check in desks were wearing veils, and no-one batted an eyelid, because that's the norm...........what you're effectively arguing for is homogenisation of culture in a vastly multi-cultural society, it just won't work.........sure the women wearing veils over here will get discriminated against in customer facing roles, but that's their choice...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    PussyKatty wrote:
    Just the same as people may judge a woman for wearing a miniskirt and low cut top, some may judge women wearing the full veil as being non people.

    That isn't what jack Straw was saying though. his comment was atht he felt more comfortable if the veil was removed. that is, in the main, because of the culture in which he was raised.

    For all the faux outrage at his comments, I haven't heard anyone ask why his feelings are less important that those of the women involved.

    I even heard a man tonight suggest that jack's comments "came at the wrong time". I would ask when it is ever the wrong time for people to use their right to free expression?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I don't see anything wrong in Straw asking so long as if the answer is 'no' it is left at that and respected. I'm not so comfortable with this becoming public domain as I can see a few idiots starting to demand women take their veil off when they speak to them.

    And lo and behold!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5414704.stm

    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The racist would have done that anyway.

    Jack Straw was entirely right in his comments about the burka, it is a symbol of division. People should be allowed to wear what they want, but if you deliberately dress in such a way as to exclude yourself from the prevailing culture of the country you are in then you can't then turn around and whinge about that culture "excluding" you.

    Basically what the problem seems to be is that many Moslem leaders want this country to change to fit their prevailing culture, and then feel that they are "excluded" when this does not happen. We have a culture of having equal clothes for men and women, and we have a culture of showing your face to people; it's their choice whether they do or don't, but companies should be allowed to refuse entry to people who will not do so.

    Interestingly Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley, seems to agree with Straw in this instance. It is rare that she is wrong on the subject of race relations, despite the Moslem Council of Britain trying to tar her as a Islamophobic racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Interestingly Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley, seems to agree with Straw in this instance.

    yeah i saw her on the news last night, ironic i thought "now there's a woman who should wear a veil" :p .......i do see where she's coming from though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    The racist would have done that anyway.

    Jack Straw was entirely right in his comments about the burka, it is a symbol of division. People should be allowed to wear what they want, but if you deliberately dress in such a way as to exclude yourself from the prevailing culture of the country you are in then you can't then turn around and whinge about that culture "excluding" you.

    .
    :rolleyes: Maybe muslim women should all start wearing low cut tops and short skirts to try and fit in a bit better?
    I really dont think a veil is necessarily any more oppressive than the average western womans costume. Obviously its bad if someone is forced to wear it, but theres a hell of a lot of women who not only feel freed by the veil, but wear it as a symbol of their devotion to their religion.
    I feel its totally wrong and an abuse of power for a man in a position of power such as Jack Straw to ask anyone to remove more clothing than they feel comfortable with. And I DO think there is such a thing as an innapropriate time to raise certain issues.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel its totally wrong and an abuse of power for a man in a position of power such as Jack Straw to ask anyone to remove more clothing than they feel comfortable with.

    Well from a security/identification point of view in itself it's a perfectly reasonable demand.

    And for anybody who values face to face communication it's a reasonable demand.
    And I DO think there is such a thing as an innapropriate time to raise certain issues.

    When would be an appropriate time?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From a security point of view, I guess what they do with passport control would be adequate. Photo identity and then someone can verify it in a private room. Usually a woman.

    As for making a demand on someone because you value a certain kind of communication. Its not necessary to see someones face to talk to them. You may prefer it but its definitely not necessary, especially if the person involved has good reason for not wanting to show themselves in that way.

    I think with the current climate and scapegoating of muslims, and the public unrest, its very definitely a bad time for someone to be adding fuel to the fire.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its not necessary to see someones face to talk to them. You may prefer it ...

    So, if you prefer it, why cann't you ask that the veil be removed?
    but its definitely not necessary

    ... and neither is wearing a veil.
    I think with the current climate and scapegoating of muslims, and the public unrest, its very definitely a bad time for someone to be adding fuel to the fire.

    There is never a wrong time to express an opinion. The minute you start to cutail that right then you undermine the very principle of democracy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok, you may prefer a woman to wear a short skirt - is it then ok to ask her to hitch it up a few inches?
    For a lot of women, asking them to remove their veil, would be pretty much akin to asking someone to show you their tits. Completely unnacceptable.
    Youre totally underestimating what it means to a lot of the people that wear it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok, you may prefer a woman to wear a short skirt - is it then ok to ask her to hitch it up a few inches?
    For a lot of women, asking them to remove their veil, would be pretty much akin to asking someone to show you their tits. Completely unnacceptable.
    Youre totally underestimating what it means to a lot of the people that wear it.

    That does not really change the fact that in our culture someone covering their entire face is generally seen as a rude. In a similar way wearing sunglasses in a meeting would be seen as rude. The full veil does not help integration and should not be encouraged. It does not promote equality for women, it fosters segregation and has no place in a modern country.

    Lets remember that many devoutly religious Muslim women do not see it as necessary to cover their entire face. But some do and if they do it is ultimately their choice – except in actual fact it often isn't, it's normally the husband who can wear whatever he likes and family/cultural pressure that forces women to cover their face in cloth. That unfortunately cannot be changed...

    But it's absolutely reasonable to politely request in a private meeting that somebody removes it. And it would be absolutely right to ban such religious paraphernalia in schools.

    Very few British people would be comfortable being taught by somebody whose face was unrecognisable, or seeing a GP with a full veil – the fact is those behind the full veil lose opportunities to properly integrate and disadvantage themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok, you may prefer a woman to wear a short skirt - is it then ok to ask her to hitch it up a few inches?

    How is that, in any way, close to being the same.

    We are talking about someone who feels more comfortable being able to see another persons face when speaking with them.

    They can deny him and he would continue to speak with them.

    I fail to see how anyone lifting their skirt a little would help in a conversation, but why shouldn't I be "allowed" to even ask?
Sign In or Register to comment.