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Britain/EU sell 72 fighters to Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia has confirmed it is to buy 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft from the UK, in a deal that could be worth more than £6bn.
The contract, brokered between the Saudi government and the Ministry of Defence, will safeguard thousands of jobs at UK defence firm BAE Systems.

Saudi Arabia is buying the Eurofighters to replace its range of Tornado jets which were also made by BAE.

The Eurofighter was developed by BAE with European firms EADS and Alenia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5262120.stm

Hooray for ethical arms dealing policies!

Trebles all around!

Well done Britain & the EU.

:rolleyes:
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    democracy (lack of hereafter) FTW
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh this is a long running cozy relationship of MIC corruption indeed...

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=9008
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure this will do good for peace in the region. Not....stop providing the tools that will be used to kill innocent people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Hooray for ethical arms dealing policies!

    :confused:

    We sell arms to a nation with no history or armed invasion, or of using planes against it's own civillians and who have only ever acted in self defence or as part of the UN and you call in unethical?

    Or are we assuming here that any sale of arms is unethical?

    There are, of course, other things which I wouldn't ever sell the Saudis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps is not stricted related to the weapons themselves, I'll admit that. But Saudi Arabia has a poor human rights record. Torture is not uncommon (as some British ex-pats could confirm). They might not use fighter jets to torture prisoners but torture them they do. That's not the kind of people you want to do extensive trade with- least of all weapons.

    Incidentally if memory serves one British expat recalled the irony of being tortured with an electric baton made in, er... Britain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Absolutley and it's those items which I have the ethical issue with. And I don't disagree about the Human Rights comment either.

    I don't think that it would be wrong for us to sell the Saudis planes to replace the Tornados which, if they really want to bomb a country, they could use anyway.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Great news. Thousands of British jobs have been safeguarded. This is excellent news for them as well as British industry. While Saudi Arabia has a disgusting domestic human rights record the Saudi regime has not pledged itself to obliterating other countries and there is little danger of the Saudis invading anybody unprovoked. (That said, the expansionist and aggressive aims of Iran's president could at some point pose a danger to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has proved a loyal friend to Britain, there's nothing wrong with us selling them the equipment they may need to defend themselves).

    Anyway if we'd refused to sell these aircrafts to the Saudis the winners would have been US or French firms and the losers redundant British workers. Those opposing this sale must think creating French jobs is more important than safeguarding British jobs.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Hot as. More sexy aircraft are going to exist. I hope the Saudis bring them to airshows :D

    Good tohugh, nowt wrong with it. We sold 'em Tornados, so we should sell them replacements.

    However - who will they sell the Tornados to? Or will they keep them, as they are still perfectley good Aircraft, up to date, and serve in combat well? Maybe Saudi Arabia wants a bigger airforce?



    Edit: I wonder if Saudi Arabia wasn't as stingy as the UK's Government, and decided to order guns for thier pilots, so they may have a better chance should they use up all thier missiles.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Those opposing this sale must think creating French jobs is more important than safeguarding British jobs.
    Well to be fair, they seem to need them more at the moment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Great news. Thousands of British jobs have been safeguarded. This is excellent news for them as well as British industry.
    Says the man who spits blood every time the EU makes a trade agreement with China.

    I take my hat off to you sir. :D

    Anyway if we'd refused to sell these aircrafts to the Saudis the winners would have been US or French firms and the losers redundant British workers. Those opposing this sale must think creating French jobs is more important than safeguarding British jobs.
    Maybe they think morals should come before profit?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well to be fair, they seem to need them more at the moment.

    Why should I care? The French look out for nobody but themselves, the protectionist and illegal ban on British beef highlighted that, the French hurt our already downtrodden agricultural sector.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Maybe they think morals should come before profit?

    You can call it morals but had we refused this sale it would have been a pointless and empty gesture. The Saudis would have got similar equipment from somebody else. (And anyway since this equipment is unlikely to be used to harm anybody in the foreseeable future existing for defence purposes I'm not sure what moral qualms there are). Refusing the sale, sure it would have made middle class liberals feel good no doubt, give them the sense that they're doing something about human rights in Saudi Arabia when in reality they're not making any difference. But meanwhile the thousands of redundant British workers would be paying the price for some meaningless PR move.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So long as you never again complain when the EU (and that incidentally includes Britain) sells something to the Chinese...

    Otherwise some people could be forgiven for thinking you were suffering from an acute case of hypocritus maximus ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Great news. Thousands of British jobs have been safeguarded. This is excellent news for them as well as British industry. While Saudi Arabia has a disgusting domestic human rights record the Saudi regime has not pledged itself to obliterating other countries and there is little danger of the Saudis invading anybody unprovoked. (That said, the expansionist and aggressive aims of Iran's president could at some point pose a danger to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has proved a loyal friend to Britain, there's nothing wrong with us selling them the equipment they may need to defend themselves).

    Anyway if we'd refused to sell these aircrafts to the Saudis the winners would have been US or French firms and the losers redundant British workers. Those opposing this sale must think creating French jobs is more important than safeguarding British jobs.

    Johnny Foreigner can die but thats ok a few people get to keep their jobs. :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    So long as you never again complain when the EU (and that incidentally includes Britain) sells something to the Chinese...

    My objection to selling weapons to the Chinese is not because of their disgusting domestic human rights abuses - not selling them fighter jets or whatever isn't going to help Chinese political prisoners or occupied Tibetans. I would object to weapons sales to China rather because of their aggressive stance towards Taiwan and Tibet. Further, I think China already poses a much greater danger than Saudi Arabia and unless there's an Islamic revolution or something in Saudi I can't see that changing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    Johnny Foreigner can die but thats ok a few people get to keep their jobs. :thumb:

    Who is going to die as a result of this sale? :confused:

    Saudi Arabia already has the capabilities of bombing neighbours. This sale isn't going to change that. And er who are they going to bomb? Who's going to die? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    Johnny Foreigner can die but thats ok a few people get to keep their jobs. :thumb:

    Quite important to the people I assume, and as previous posters have mentioned its not like the Saudi's keep popping over their borders to nobble the neighbours.

    In fact as it ties Saudi closer into us (ie if they go to war and we're not happy there likely not to get any spares) it probably means Saudi is even less likely to go to war with its neighbours.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    My objection to selling weapons to the Chinese is not because of their disgusting domestic human rights abuses - not selling them fighter jets or whatever isn't going to help Chinese political prisoners or occupied Tibetans. I would object to weapons sales to China rather because of their aggressive stance towards Taiwan and Tibet. Further, I think China already poses a much greater danger than Saudi Arabia and unless there's an Islamic revolution or something in Saudi I can't see that changing.

    So, its ok for Saudi human rights abuses but not Chinese ones. It is also fine for Israeli Human Rights abuses and weapon sales (The Israelis love selling thier new US technology to the chinese, incidently. Hence rapid chinese military development over the last 20 years.)

    Roger that, sir! Logic has left the building!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's illegal to be a non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, even Sadam allowed religious freedom. Though saying that, they aren't a threat to us so I don't care really, they can do what they want. We sell all sorts of weapons to despots in Africa and whatnot.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    So, its ok for Saudi human rights abuses but not Chinese ones.

    Maybe I misread something, but I though that he very specifically ruled out human rights as the reason :confused:

    I think that his comment was a threat China posed to Taiwan...

    ETA: In fact, one page one he says:
    Dis wrote:
    Saudi Arabia has a disgusting domestic human rights

    Emphasis mine. Now I assume that he means it's opporessive, rather than disgusting becuase it's not harsh enough...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    It's illegal to be a non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia

    Except it's not, optherwise very few Britons could even visit the country.

    It's illegale to practice (i.e. hold a service) though... at least that is my understanding
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except it's not, optherwise very few Britons could even visit the country.

    It's illegale to practice (i.e. hold a service) though... at least that is my understanding
    You knew what I meant though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There have been cases of women being severely punished for having the temerity of exposing too much flesh or hair in public.

    Regardless of whether they attack their neighbours or not the Saudi regime is a pretty unpleasant lot, and one that we should not get cosy with.

    Had the sale been agreed on condition that Saudi improved its human rights record, for instance, it might have been more acceptable. I doubt that wasn't the case though.

    Look at those British guys accused of planting bombs a few years ago. Remember one of them giving that bizarre press conference admitting to the charges (his family said other than the physical appearence the man was a complete stranger to them- no doubt weeks or torture and/or drugs had nothing to do with it)?

    And with regard to 'safeguarding British jobs', this is a pretty meaningless expression thrown around whenever someone is trying to justify a dubious deal. BAE is an extremely successful company. Were the workers about to lose their jobs if this deal hadn't come through? The hell they were.

    Arms dealing is, at best, an unpleasant and just about justifiable business. If we must sell weapons to others we must at least ensure they're not oppresive regimes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Arms dealing is, at best, an unpleasant and just about justifiable business. If we must sell weapons to others we must at least ensure they're not oppresive regimes.

    Sadly that doesn't happen. I think this particular incident here is a case of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And with regard to 'safeguarding British jobs', this is a pretty meaningless expression thrown around whenever someone is trying to justify a dubious deal. BAE is an extremely successful company. Were the workers about to lose their jobs if this deal hadn't come through? The hell they were.

    Not tommorrow perhaps, but its seems obvious to me that if a firm doesn't keep selling its products the people who work for that firm will end up out of work. They're not going to keep people on if they're not needed
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BAE is involved in many projects though. They're perfectly capable of carrying on as usual and without job loses as it is. If that were to happen regularly and BAE had no other business interests you could start worrying about job losses.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, but its not like selling aircraft is like selling Mars Bars - you need to make a few big sales, every few years. I could be wrong, but I think outside Europe this is the first sale the Typhoon has had.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    BAE is involved in many projects though. They're perfectly capable of carrying on as usual and without job loses as it is. If that were to happen regularly and BAE had no other business interests you could start worrying about job losses.

    I don't know much about business strategies but I'd guess few businesses after losing a contract worth over £6 billion would be able to 'carry on as usual.'

    Anyway..nobody denies Saudi human rights abuses but these aircraft will not be used against Saudi civilians and Saudi Arabia is unlikely to be an aggressor in a war. Fair enough, you think we could have tied the sale to improvements in Saudi Arabia's human rights record. Putting aside the fact that by doing so we'd have given the contract to the French or the Americans - what makes military aircraft so different? Military aircraft are pretty unrelated to the appalling way that the Saudis treat women, they don't use fighter jets to abuse women...Point being, if we're going to put conditions for sale on 'essential' defence equipment like fighter jets - like an improvement in human rights should conditions for improvements in human rights be placed on the Saudis when pharmaceutical companies make deals with them? Or car manufacturers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know much about business strategies but I'd guess few businesses after losing a contract worth over £6 billion would be able to 'carry on as usual.'
    But the sale of the 72 fighters to Saudi certainly wasn't part of their original plans and estimations.

    The project was viable already from the sales it was always going to get from the 4 European countries involved in it. The Saudi sales is a nice bonus, nothing more.

    You'd be well advised to take any warning of job losses from company bosses if things don't go their way with a large pinch of salt. In the immense majority of cases is nothing more than scaremongering.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No the European sales gave them a profit for several years, but to continue to make Eurofighter and hence to emply people they need to make other sales. Its not scaremongering its simple economics.
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