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baby's rights versus women's rights..

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    You mean you'd alright telling your child that their father is a rapist?

    I think the issue is, that if you subscribe to the 'a life is a life' idea, then ANY baby, regardless of how they were concieved, is just as innocent and deserving to be given a chance at life as any other. It's not the babies fault that they were concieved in a violent, horrific way - so therefore, is this any more of a reason to abort than any other?

    For the record I am absolutely pro-choice, just explaining what the thought process might be here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie, I don't think people are saying they would want a rapists baby, what they are saying is that by making exceptions to when you'd have an abortion it's still just you making a personal choice.

    So aborting because of an abortion, or because it would intefer with a career are still the same thing - the woman deciding to not give birth to a child for their own reasons.

    No one is suggesting they don't understand why you'd make that choice, but are highlighting the fact that it does require choice, something you wouldn't have if abortion was illegal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Damn, beat me to it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don’t get the exception either, I get why people would abort a rapist’s baby but if you are anti abortion, there shouldn’t be exceptions IMO. Everyone’s different though, this is a very sensitive issue and I would never disregard anyone’s legitimate opinion on this. We all have different views, it’s our own bodies at the end of the day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok, I understand what you're saying Sophia and why you think rape isn't an exception. What if it's not her fault she was raped? Would you be alright with aborting a baby then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sophia is saying she does agree with abortion after rape, but also any other reason a mother might have.

    It's always not her fault when someone is raped.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Simply, a guy always has to do it to the woman, so i cant see how its a womans fault to be raped
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, think we should move on past that I'm sophie didn't quite mean to intend it the way it sounded.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But aren't there some women who will cry rape after having sex with a man then the morning after, decides that it's not what she really wanted?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That isn't what this thread is about, and that isn't rape.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    But aren't there some women who will cry rape after having sex with a man then the morning after, decides that it's not what she really wanted?

    then thats a claim of rape, not actual rape

    very different thing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    This is the reason I suspect people make an excpetion for rape -- I'm repeating it here in case you missed it. That's the reason I'm arguing with you Sofie, because I think it's inconsistent to make an exception in the case of rape, and undermines the anti-choice arguments in my mind.

    :yes:

    That is what i was getting at too Sofie, I wasnt disagreeing with your right to choose an abortion after rape. I am also pro choice and think the woman should have the right to choose to terminate the pregnancy for any reason.

    I've probably repeated myself a bit there, sorry.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    Yeah, think we should move on past that I'm sophie didn't quite mean to intend it the way it sounded.

    Me or Sophia?:confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote:
    Not too sure really.

    Anyway, the 3 reasons are:
    - Rape
    - If my life was to be put in some sort of danger (whether this is during or after the pregnancy)
    - If the baby's life was in danger or they had a severe disability which meant that they wouldn't have a decent quality of life


    why would the abortion of a foetus from a rape, be any different to any other foetus, if you believe it is murder, it is still murder as that faetus hasn't done anything in itself - so that makes it a choice still


    personally just to dig my nose into it - whilst the baby is inside the women it's being kept alive by her (when a kid is born prematurely up to 30 weeks, most either die or are severely disabled) so she has every right to an abortion of her choice - of course only up to a certain point apart from if it threatens the womens physical health

    just because you wouldn't have an abortion personally, doesn't mean you have to inflict that decision upon someone else, and ultimately, it is almost entirely a subjective emotional issue so leave people to their choices
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    This is the reason I suspect people make an excpetion for rape -- I'm repeating it here in case you missed it. That's the reason I'm arguing with you Sofie, because I think it's inconsistent to make an exception in the case of rape, and undermines the anti-choice arguments in my mind.

    I think you can make a case for rape being seperate. Rape almost by definition means you had no choice in the matter. If its not rape you voluntarily had sex and have to accept the consequences, it may be a decision you regret (or at least you regret the consequences), but you made a choice and the anti-choice argument would be that 'why should the baby suffer because you're unwilling to accept the consequences of your voluntary decision?'

    Not that I'm anti-choice, but its quiet at work and I feel like being argumentative.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    I think you can make a case for rape being seperate. Rape almost by definition means you had no choice in the matter. If its not rape you voluntarily had sex and have to accept the consequences, it may be a decision you regret (or at least you regret the consequences), but you made a choice and the anti-choice argument would be that 'why should the baby suffer because you're unwilling to accept the consequences of your voluntary decision?'

    Not that I'm anti-choice, but its quiet at work and I feel like being argumentative.
    Yes I see that point too, you make your own choices so accept the consequences. It's still because you don't want it though. And if pro lifers are against abortion becasue it is not fair on the child, then any circumstance of how the pregnancy came about is not the child's fault. Though I would totally understand a woman having the abortion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    I think you can make a case for rape being seperate. Rape almost by definition means you had no choice in the matter. If its not rape you voluntarily had sex and have to accept the consequences, it may be a decision you regret (or at least you regret the consequences), but you made a choice and the anti-choice argument would be that 'why should the baby suffer because you're unwilling to accept the consequences of your voluntary decision?'
    That might carry a little more weight if the anti-abortionists were prepared to allow women whose contraception have failed them to have an abortion. But to the best of my knowledge they couldn't care less about that situation, even though the pregancy is not the woman's fault.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    That might carry a little more weight if the anti-abortionists were prepared to allow women whose contraception have failed them to have an abortion. But to the best of my knowledge they couldn't care less about that situation, even though the pregancy is not the woman's fault.

    But even then you voluntarily had sex - with (hopefully) the knowledge that the only 100% effective contraception is not having sex. To that extent you have to accept the consequences
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    VinylVicky wrote:
    Yes I see that point too, you make your own choices so accept the consequences. It's still because you don't want it though. And if pro lifers are against abortion becasue it is not fair on the child, then any circumstance of how the pregnancy came about is not the child's fault. Though I would totally understand a woman having the abortion.

    True but even anti-abortion campaigners are making a moral choice of not the child's fault in any abortion vs not the woman's fault in rape.

    Its probably also fair to day that hardline anti-choice campaigners would always be against abortion, even in the cases of rape and would just say if the woman doesn't want to have the baby she should give it up for abortion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    But even then you voluntarily had sex - with (hopefully) the knowledge that the only 100% effective contraception is not having sex. To that extent you have to accept the consequences
    If you want to travel that route you could even say that women who got date-raped should've refrained from meeting a young man on a date in the first place.

    But that's a moot point anyway. At the end of the day, even in the case of rape, those who believe abortion is murder cannot possibly make distinctions based on how the 'child' was conceived. Regardless of not being the mother's fault the 'child' is innocent- even if the father is a rapist; and an abortion would be as much of a murder as that of a foetus conceived after consentual sex.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    True but even anti-abortion campaigners are making a moral choice of not the child's fault in any abortion vs not the woman's fault in rape.

    Its probably also fair to day that hardline anti-choice campaigners would always be against abortion, even in the cases of rape and would just say if the woman doesn't want to have the baby she should give it up for abortion.
    you mean adoption? not to be picky
    I see both sides of the story very much. I just think that if you are pro life then abortion shouldn't be acceptable for some reasons and not for others. How can someone say to me "yes, that's acceptable to me, I will have an abortion if I am raped but Vicky, I don't think your reasons are good enough, so no you will not" If you can bend your morals, don't criticise me for my choices.
    Do yuo see what mean?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    What does it matter whether the woman chose to get into that situation or not to the argument though? In any case, the foetus has no choice in the matter. It's just not a coherent argument in my mind.

    In both cases the foetus has no choice, but in one case the woman had no choice either. In the rape case you just acknowledge that in cases where neither foetus/stroke or mother had a choice in the conception, you put the mother first. For normal pregancy where the Mother did have a choice she has to accept the consequences of it

    Though as I said hardline anti-choice wouldn't even allow rape as a reason
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    If you want to travel that route you could even say that women who got date-raped should've refrained from meeting a young man on a date in the first place.

    But that's a moot point anyway. At the end of the day, even in the case of rape, those who believe abortion is murder cannot possibly make distinctions based on how the 'child' was conceived. Regardless of not being the mother's fault the 'child' is innocent- even if the father is a rapist; and an abortion would be as much of a murder as that of a foetus conceived after consentual sex.

    But that assumes that everyone who is anti-arbotion is absolutely hardline and says its always wrong. But in reality we know that people have different gradiations of when they think abortion is wrong these range from abortion being alright up until point of delivery to those who think its never right within any circumstances.

    Its quite coherent in my view to say that 'I'm anti-abortion in most cases, but in certain cases where the mother had no choice herself to have sex we should not force her to have the baby, but if she went and had sex willingly she's got to accept that sometimes sex results in preganancy'

    I'm not sure your analogy holds up, as it never acceptable for a man to rape a woman and she is never to blame for his actions. However if she voluntary shagged him on thge first date, it takes two to tango.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    VinylVicky wrote:
    you mean adoption? not to be picky
    I see both sides of the story very much. I just think that if you are pro life then abortion shouldn't be acceptable for some reasons and not for others. How can someone say to me "yes, that's acceptable to me, I will have an abortion if I am raped but Vicky, I don't think your reasons are good enough, so no you will not" If you can bend your morals, don't criticise me for my choices.
    Do yuo see what mean?

    No absolutely see what you mean and in my defence I have to say I'm arguing a case I'm not particually in agreement with.

    I'm guessing the original thing of this came from Sophia with when abortion is or is not allowed. But to put it on its head she could be seen as arguing from a limited pro-choice agenda, rather than always being anti abortion.

    I would say I'm basically pro-choice, in that I think that there should be no real limits on abortion up until about 20 weeks, but after that I think that choice isn't absolute and the later after that it becomes the more the rights of the mother need to be balanced with (insert choice of term here) and that as the baby develops there becomes less and less reason why abortion should be allowed.

    I suppose apart from extreme pro or anti-choice most people in this country would accept abortion should be legal in some circumstances and not in others, but we may disagree what those might be.
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