Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.

Should Israel pay War Reperations

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Now, I'm not the most clued up, but get this is like compensation for blowing a country up unjustifiably. For example, in WW2 Germany had to compensate the soviet union etc.

Now, this is not so much a discussion whether Israel's actions have been justified, I think given the amount of reputable bodies such as amnesty international who have said Israel are commiting war crimes is enough - the evidence is pretty damning. Someone's going to start saying they have the right to defend themselves anyway :rolleyes: but the focus of this thread is, given that Israel have attacked Lebanon disproportionately, with massive 'collataral damage', should they be made to pay compensation?

I think personally they should. There is that massive oil slick outside lebanon now, which will cost an estimated $100m to clean up (not short change for a small country), and economic impacts on fishing / tourism could last up to ten years according to the BBC.

Below is an article about the total projected cost, thing is though - Lebanon got the shit kicked out of them, I don't know how many are displaced / lost their homes, but they're hardly in a state to start paying $7bn to rebuild.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/08/17/2003323490

However, according to wikipedia, the main criticisms of war reparations are:

* that they are punitive measures against the populace of the losing side only, rather than against the belligerent side, which may be the side that justly ought to make amends
* that in very many instances, the defeated populace's government waged war, and the people themselves had little or no role in deciding to wage war, and therefore war reparations are imposed on innocent people
* that after years or years of war, the populace of the losing side is likely already impoverished, and the imposition of war reparations therefore may drive the people into deeper poverty, both fueling long-term resentment of the victor and making the actual payments unlikely

so your thoughts?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You used to pay war reperations for loosing a war, rather than a no-score draw.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    You used to pay war reperations for loosing a war, rather than a no-score draw.
    Historically, have victors helped countries devastated by the war, even if they were former enemies?

    For instance, was Germany helped in any way or given low interest loans after WWII?

    Nowadays I guess war are little more than well-oiled (no pun intended) business mechanisms. Invade a place, raze it to the ground, grab its resources and then send building companies from your country and award them all the reconstruction contracts. Nice.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Historically, have victors helped countries devastated by the war, even if they were former enemies?

    For instance, was Germany helped in any way or given low interest loans after WWII?

    Nowadays I guess war are little more than well-oiled (no pun intended) business mechanisms. Invade a place, raze it to the ground, grab its resources and then send building companies from your country and award them all the reconstruction contracts. Nice.

    Marshall Aid is the only one off hand I can think off, but that's different from reparations and even then it only covered West Germany, East Germany was comprehensively looted by the Soviets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Nowadays I guess war are little more than well-oiled (no pun intended) business mechanisms. Invade a place, raze it to the ground, grab its resources and then send building companies from your country and award them all the reconstruction contracts. Nice.

    And don`t forget that any "reparations" will be accumulated by theft, before being distributed to the victims. Not that any victim is likely to see any compensation even if it is agreed upon.

    WAR IS A RACKET

    http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The ultimate initiators of this conflict; Iran - without which Hezbollah would have no weapons and no money has made billions out of the rise in the price of oil during the conflict...

    If Israel is to pay reparations to Lebanon for damage done will Hezbollah similarly pay reparations to Israel? Will Iran and Syria pay reparations to Israel for supporting Hezbollah and allowing this conflict to occur? Will the UN pay reparations to Israel for not disarming Hezbollah as it said it would?

    Anyway Israel like the US and the rest of the international community will through private donations and government aid contribute to Lebanon - although it is worth noting that Muslim countries generally refuse aid from Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The ultimate initiators of this conflict

    You mean Israel.
    allowing this conflict to occur

    Only ones who "allowed" it to occur were Israel's neocon cohorts in the Bush admin with whom this further Israeli war crime was planned to the letter years ago. Syria and Iran had nothing to do with it save in aiding a legitimate civil defense group in fighting expansionist tyrannical intent on the part of Olmert and his rabid Chief of Staff. Oh and as expected Netanyahu did his conniving part as emmissary to his ideological chums in Washington.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=MAD20060724&articleId=2801

    For an accurate and in depth examination of the actual agenda which has been unfolding through Israeli-perpetuated conflict and incremental occupation and land confiscation, read on...

    http://takingaim.info/hhz/index.htm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My point was dis. is that although Israel has suffered some damage, it's an economically strong country and it's more of a 'blip' than anything major. Whereas lebanon's economy has been severely damaged and people's livelihoods will be impacted upon in the short term future. I think that the civilians who are now going to rely on UN aid handouts should have some greater form of compensation.

    The UN in theory is a great tool, but as America and the UK have shown by invading Iraq, and Israel by invading Lebanon, it's pretty easy to get away with murder. Only by the UN being more hardlined and demanding economic and financial 'compensation' for those who've been worst affected (and this would include families of those in Israel who've died) is there going to be any sort of deterrant to the big countries doing whatever they like.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My point was dis. is that although Israel has suffered some damage, it's an economically strong country and it's more of a 'blip' than anything major. Whereas lebanon's economy has been severely damaged and people's livelihoods will be impacted upon in the short term future. I think that the civilians who are now going to rely on UN aid handouts should have some greater form of compensation.

    The UN in theory is a great tool, but as America and the UK have shown by invading Iraq, and Israel by invading Lebanon, it's pretty easy to get away with murder. Only by the UN being more hardlined and demanding economic and financial 'compensation' for those who've been worst affected (and this would include families of those in Israel who've died) is there going to be any sort of deterrant to the big countries doing whatever they like.

    The problem is the UN is not an independent body (and nor can it be). Its got to work within the existing power structure and can't become more hardline. People criticise it for being irrelevant, but at least it sometimes have influence. If its hardline without the means to back up its rhetoric it will become even more irrelevant and end up like the League of Nations.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    I think Israel should. But it must do it off its own back - not be forced into it.

    By doing this is can show to the surrounding nations it does have a nice, good, caring side. It should send people in to help with the rebuilding, and help establish an infrastructure again, as it has kindly bombed out roads and soforth.

    The chances of this happening are slim to none.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    I think Israel should. But it must do it off its own back - not be forced into it.

    By doing this is can show to the surrounding nations it does have a nice, good, caring side. It should send people in to help with the rebuilding, and help establish an infrastructure again, as it has kindly bombed out roads and soforth.

    The chances of this happening are slim to none.

    I bet US and Israeli buildres will win a fair amount of the contracts though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I bet US and Israeli buildres will win a fair amount of the contracts though.

    Doubt it - can't imagine many Israeli firms wanting to put people into Lebanon, nor many Hezbollah allowing them to do so without probs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Doubt it - can't imagine many Israeli firms wanting to put people into Lebanon, nor many Hezbollah allowing them to do so without probs.

    I still believe Israel is responsible for the damages, as is Hezbollah to the damages caused in Israel.

    I believe they're interdependent. If Israel and Lebanon would help each other, it'd be over, but it's quite clear that this won't happen in a hundred years. If they could come to an agreement. The solution would be if either side could negotiate and come to an agreement - it is obvious that neither party is gaining a squat (sp?) from this war. I still believe Israel is responsible, as is Hezbollah, but who will make them compensate? No one... They'll have to do it willingly, and I doubt that'll happen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    quarfly wrote:
    I still believe Israel is responsible for the damages, as is Hezbollah to the damages caused in Israel.

    I believe they're interdependent. If Israel and Lebanon would help each other, it'd be over, but it's quite clear that this won't happen in a hundred years. If they could come to an agreement. The solution would be if either side could negotiate and come to an agreement - it is obvious that neither party is gaining a squat (sp?) from this war. I still believe Israel is responsible, as is Hezbollah, but who will make them compensate? No one... They'll have to do it willingly, and I doubt that'll happen.

    Yep I'd agree. Blaming one side or the other is counterproductive. The only way there is going to be long term peace is by trust building measures, so that neither side feels itself under threat from the other.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Always interesting to see the "no one side is to blame, they're both guilty" argument every time Israel launches a fullscale act of aggression and destruction either on Gaza (which people here seem to forget has also been occurring in typical under-reported fashion concurrently with the destruction of Lebanon) or much more extensively on Lebanon. Yet, there was and is no such excuse made for Nazi Germany, Serbia or Rwanda. Of course there never could be more than side of the story in those or any other historically villified act of nationalist aggression apart from those planned and committed by the perpetually excepted Israelis.

    It truly boggles the rational and principly consistent mind how dissonant the populist bandwagon is.

    Fact: This was a pre-planned and intended act of ideological aggression and both a war crime and crime against humanity worthy of extradition and trials in the Hague for the entire Israeli government and the IDF command structure. Nothing less.

    http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_654.shtml

    further background to the agenda currently being played out by Israel and Washington, for those who care to understand the political reality behind decontextualised mainstream media propaganda...

    http://www.ziopedia.org/content/view/688/1/

    http://www.irmep.org/Policy_Briefs/3_27_2003_Clean_Break_or_Dirty_War.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fact: This was a pre-planned and intended act of ideological aggression and both a war crime and crime against humanity worthy of extradition and trials in the Hague for the entire Israeli government and the IDF command structure. Nothing less.

    Fact: You're a fruitcake.

    Fact: Hezbollah initiated war with Israel.

    Fact: While Israel responded accordingly the IDF could have conducted itself with greater care and diplomacy.

    Fact: Israel's aim of not harming civilians was made impossible by Hezbollah operating deep within civilian areas; Hezbollah even repeatedly fired rockets from high density residential areas.

    Fact: Hezbollah used civilians and UN personnel as human shields.

    Fact: This entire conflict could have been averted had the Lebanese disarmed Hezbollah or the UN fulfilled its pledge to disarm Hezbollah. (Or even if Hezbollah's Iranian sponsors had stopped sending money and weapons to Hezbollah terrorists).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Always interesting to see the "no one side is to blame, they're both guilty" argument every time Israel launches a fullscale act of aggression and destruction either on Gaza (which people here seem to forget has also been occurring in typical under-reported fashion concurrently with the destruction of Lebanon) or much more extensively on Lebanon. Yet, there was and is no such excuse made for Nazi Germany, Serbia or Rwanda. Of course there never could be more than side of the story in those or any other historically villified act of nationalist aggression apart from those planned and committed by the perpetually excepted Israelis.

    Funnily enough I've also used the no one side to blame following suicide bombing in Israel. Though more accurately I prefer to say both sides are to blame, with a large troop of other actos also having some share of the blame ranging from the Romans, the Turks, the Germans, the Brits, the Americans, the Soviets and various Arabic states.

    On Serbia I also hold to the view all sides are to blame, plus failures in the United Nations, Europe (especially UK and Germany).

    The rise of nazi Germany also has a fair share of blame aprt from the Nazis, including French, British and American post-war policy (reparations followed by appeasment), Polish treatment of ethnic Germans which played into the Nazi's hands and the failure of Weimar to deal with extremists.

    Now I don't know much about Rwanda, but I think its a fair bet that I won't go for a black and white argument.

    None of this justifies individual war crimes whether that is an attack on civilians by air or by suicide bomber, but I've tended to find the world isn't as black and white as sometimes painted.r
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fact: You're a fruitcake.

    Fact: Hezbollah initiated war with Israel.

    Fact: While Israel responded accordingly the IDF could have conducted itself with greater care and diplomacy.

    Fact: Israel's aim of not harming civilians was made impossible by Hezbollah operating deep within civilian areas; Hezbollah even repeatedly fired rockets from high density residential areas.

    Fact: Hezbollah used civilians and UN personnel as human shields.

    Fact: This entire conflict could have been averted had the Lebanese disarmed Hezbollah or the UN fulfilled its pledge to disarm Hezbollah. (Or even if Hezbollah's Iranian sponsors had stopped sending money and weapons to Hezbollah terrorists).


    Fact: You are a shill for propaganda you lack even the basic political understanding to even resognise.

    Fact: You are incorrect.

    Fact: The IDF conducted itself both in Lebanon and in Gaza with all the intentional destruction and crimes against humanity for which the neo-colonialist, expansionist, aggressivist, ethnocidal and apartheid Zionist agenda of its founders and successive ideologue leaders is clearly documented.

    Fact: Israel's aim is Greater Israel and any Palestinians and Arab neighbours who dare get in the way of its long term aspirations are, in racist propagandistic fashion, called "terrorists" and subjected to collective punishments, assassinations, illegal abductions and interminable imprisonments without any recourse to internationally accepted norms of justice, demolitions of property, land confiscation and more. Ultimately, Israel has long deemed its neighbours as sub-human and thus worthy of intentional slaughter and dispossession with impunity.

    Fact: Israel embeds not only soldiers but its entire widespread military infrastructure in and around civilian centres. Precisely in order to maintain the lie that all defensive attacks against its aggressions are aimed "at civilian centres".

    Fact: This latest round in a generations long Israeli-perpetuated conflict of desired ethnic cleansing and land confiscation could not have been avoided without:

    i. the end of neo-con control in Washington, acknowledgement of the fundamental and consistently pursued aims of the institutionalised Zionist ideological agenda of the Israeli state and all its militant organs

    ii. an end to the obscene billions of unaccountable US tax dollars sent yearly for more than a half century along with massive military armament collusion for the constellation of US military contractors,

    and

    iii. widespread extraditions and war crimes trials for all those behind the ongoing ethnocidal agenda on both sides of the Atlantic.

    In short, you demonstrate, as ever, your support for apartheid, crimes against humanity and your wholly gullible incapacity to recognise the Israeli-state crafted lies you regurgitate so vociferously.

    Those not so blinded by racist ideology have a considerable body of information provided in my previous post with which to inform themselves.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Fact: You're a fruitcake.

    Fact: Hezbollah initiated war with Israel.

    Fact: While Israel responded accordingly the IDF could have conducted itself with greater care and diplomacy.

    Fact: Israel's aim of not harming civilians was made impossible by Hezbollah operating deep within civilian areas; Hezbollah even repeatedly fired rockets from high density residential areas.

    Fact: Hezbollah used civilians and UN personnel as human shields.

    Fact: This entire conflict could have been averted had the Lebanese disarmed Hezbollah or the UN fulfilled its pledge to disarm Hezbollah. (Or even if Hezbollah's Iranian sponsors had stopped sending money and weapons to Hezbollah terrorists).

    :lol: You should be a commedian! :lol:

    Fact: This isn't just food. It's M&S food.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fact: Hezbollah initiated war with Israel.

    Come now dis, you know this isn't strictly true. Some honesty from you would be nice. :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You could up the bit about Israel having no choice but to bomb civilian areas because of Hezbollah hiding amongst civilians or firing rockets from there.

    Even if that's true of some areas of South Lebanon, it's certainly not true of the Beirut neighbourhoods obliterated. Or the airport. Or the dams. Or the fuel tanks that have caused incalculable damage to 120 km of coastline.

    Edited to add: there was certainly not justification for that. If Israel was at war with the State of Lebanon you could argue that destroying the enemy's infrastructure is a vital part of the war effort. But Israel's war was against Hezbollah.

    I certainly hope they should pay and help cleaning up the oil spills. It could be there for decades :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no such excuse made for Nazi Germany, Serbia or Rwanda.

    Really, says who?

    It seems the only one who is ever blinkered enough to think that only one side in any war is to blame would be the person who has posted that fatuous comment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really, says who?

    Ah, MoK wades in again with his typical contrarian blather. Tell me then who from the leaders of Allied Forces stood trial for War Crimes at Nuremberg? Who from amongst the leaders of the Muslim and Ethnic Albanian leaderships have been dragged to the Hague and/or have been demanded to be handed over with explicit deadlines set and threats of sanctions for failure to comply? And do be so kind as to provide a list of Tutsis wanted for killing of Hutus, you wont find one.

    Says who? Says historical and political reality.

    Seems you care more about joining the little chorus of reactionaries in every discussion rather than actually researching anything beyond your soundbite level of understanding.

    Tis you who is blinkered.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Says who? Says historical and political reality.

    But that is different to what I interpreted your comment to be, and therefore what my response was about. Clearly my interpretation was wrong there.

    You were responding to NQA's post about blame in this instance. I read it as being an accusation that he would not argue the same in those other instances and also that other Users of this site (who argue the "several partners to blame" approach) wouldn't either.

    That is not the case.
    Tis you who is blinkered.

    Please point me to comments you have posted which suggest that Syria/Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah or people other than Israel/MIC/US/UK are in any way at fault for the middle east conflict...
Sign In or Register to comment.