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FAO those who think Israel's actions have been justified & proportioned

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And you really believe that, do you?

    Israel was planning to invade Lebanon well before the soldiers were kidnapped.

    We've been through this before, that is what strategic planners do. In any Army in the world there will be plans to invade any number of countries. Hell, NATO had plans on invading East Germany FFS

    It's good sense, and you have seen the reason why - it helps mount a quick response when you don't want to wait.

    Just because you have plans, doesn't mean that you will necessarily act on them or that the existence of those plan is evidence of intention to mount an "illegal" invasion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    villification of rightful Lebanese resistance (ala Hezbollah) no less surprising than any posts made by our other resident Israeli state propaganda regurgitators.

    So Hezbollah which has deliberately and indiscriminately murdered Israeli civilians through rocket attacks, many of the victims actually being Muslim Arab-Israelis is a 'rightful Lebanese resistance'? Disgusting Clan.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive answered your questions already MoK.

    You know that you haven't. You answered the question you wanted, not the one which was asked - and then you weaselled your way around even that response.

    Look back a few pages
    Obviously youve continued to read nothing by way of actual details of the Hezbollah response and what they were targetting as opposed to the Israelis.

    This statement proves my point. Nowhere did I raise the issue of Hezbollah "reponses". The question was whether you condemned all killing of civillians. It's a simple question, requires a yes or no answer really.

    All you have done here is attempt to justify (or act as an apologist) for any deaths caused by Hezbollah or even Hamas. In fact, looking back a few pages, you seem to deny that they even target civillians.

    That really does take away any moral right you have to criticise Dis when heoffers justification to Israeli actions.

    And before you again try to label me as an "apologist", let me reiterate that I condemn all killing of civillians. I have to repeat it just in case you forget that I've done so several times already.
    makes your adamant villification of rightful Lebanese resistance (ala Hezbollah)

    See, there we are again, the word "rightful". That suggests that you think it is acceptable to kill civillians... not the oppressor but civillians.

    Am I right in that assumption?
    Until then, don't waste my time or yours asking questions to which you've already had your answer, whether you like it or not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We've been through this before, that is what strategic planners do. In any Army in the world there will be plans to invade any number of countries. Hell, NATO had plans on invading East Germany FFS

    It's good sense, and you have seen the reason why - it helps mount a quick response when you don't want to wait.

    Just because you have plans, doesn't mean that you will necessarily act on them or that the existence of those plan is evidence of intention to mount an "illegal" invasion.
    Given the history and the record of the players involved, and the fact that the US is quite itching to go into Iran, I really can't believe you would be so naive as to think those plans were nothing else than a contingency plan.

    The only difference the kidnappings made was to bring those plans forward. Not that the capture of two soldiers, even if within Israel, would merit such response of course.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive answered your questions already MoK.

    Except these, from this thread...
    So "suicide" bombs are only aimed at the military then, are they?

    Do you condemn any deliberate attack on civillians? It really is a simple yes/no question here Clan. There really isn't need for an essay, there isn't any need to reword the question either.



    It was initiated for sure, but perpetuated? I think not, at least not on their own



    The principle here is about targetting of civillians, not one of fighting against a tyrannical regime. The two are not the same.



    I had you down as an apologist. This suggests that you are in fact denying that Hamas/Hezbollah have ever targetted civillians. Am I right in believing that?



    I never questioned that. For someone who "reads" you seem to stryggle with my comments - as I have said before. Although you'd know that if you actually read what I write and not what you think I write.

    My question was whether it is right to condemn Israel for their actions when ignoring those of Hamas/Hezbollah or in your case denying that they even happen.



    So you argue that it is acceptable for a nation state to fund an organisation who deliberately kill civillians?

    Yet not okay for the nation state to do it themselves?



    "Do you not" = bad grammar ;)

    Yes, I support the right of oppressed people to fight back against their oppressors.



    So when I write, "I condemn Israel's action", am I not being clear enough for you??



    So you claim, but your apparent suggestion that Israeli civillians are legitimate targets for Hamas/Hezbollah whilst condemning Israel for killing Palestinians civillians would suggest otherwise...

    I've said before and I say again, your comments sail very close to the wind and whilst it is easy to be labelled anti-Jew when you are anti-Zionist, it is also easy to hide behind the anti-Zionist tag when you are in fact much more prejudiced than that.



    Please, where have I excused Israeli actions?

    I know that I shouldn't question your immense intellect, o wise one, but you seem to struggle with a simple concept. It is possible to explain why someone does something without actually making excuses, condoning or justifying those actions. I could tell you why adults have sex with under 16's but that doesn't mean that I condone paedophilia FFS
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Given the history and the record of the players involved, and the fact that the US is quite itching to go into Iran, I really can't believe you would be so naive as to think those plans were nothing else than a contingency plan.

    Not naive, but not so cynical either.

    Like I said every Army in the world will have plans. You don't just plan for the invasions you intend, you also plan for those which you may have to do.

    Sitting in my house is a major incident plan which explains my responsibility in the event of a terrorist attack affecting the area I work in. It's detailed, I have regular training sessions to attend and every 1:12 weeks (or so) I carry a bleep ready for such an eventuality. Does that mean that the Govt plans to carry one out?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We've been through this before, that is what strategic planners do. In any Army in the world there will be plans to invade any number of countries. Hell, NATO had plans on invading East Germany FFS

    It's good sense, and you have seen the reason why - it helps mount a quick response when you don't want to wait.

    Just because you have plans, doesn't mean that you will necessarily act on them or that the existence of those plan is evidence of intention to mount an "illegal" invasion.

    I always liked this one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

    Lucky it didn't happen or Tony Blair might have been President of the Labor Party (or alternatively GWB might be Her Majesties First Minister in the United Colonies)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Again, MoK, your condemnations have NEVER called out Israel once for its outright pre-planned and intended ethnocidal agenda of indiscriminate slaughter and dispossession in collusion with its Washington neocon cohorts. As far back as 1990 Netanyahu purposed the very expansionist agression we see unfolding in recent years together with US invasions.

    These are not isolated, compartmentalised events but part of a consistent agenda to reshape the middle east and purge large swathes of their rightful indigenous arab inhabitants.

    Your muted claims of condemnation are no better nor any more genuine than Dis's calims to any comprehension or support for true pluralistic democratic principle. Both in your own right play the game of regurgitation of mainstream sanitised reporting with all its bogus state propaganda-fed claims and villification for the true victims.

    Dis desperately wants to believe that every Israeli act is "self defence" when the truth is entirely the opposite.

    The true inhumane cheerleaders of crimes against humanity are those who make any excuse whatsoever for Israel's naziistic ethnocidal intentions and actions.

    Interesting to note further how these same apologists cried for the total dismantling of Iraq when Saddam was claimed to be a threat to its neighbours. No similar cries for invasion of and regime change in Israel yet heard from them nor you. Those who evince such cognitively dissonant positions have no room to slight me nor any other defender of rightful resistance to tyranny. Hypocrits the lot of you!

    http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_22596.shtml
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not naive, but not so cynical either.

    Like I said every Army in the world will have plans. You don't just plan for the invasions you intend, you also plan for those which you may have to do.

    Sitting in my house is a major incident plan which explains my responsibility in the event of a terrorist attack affecting the area I work in. It's detailed, I have regular training sessions to attend and every 1:12 weeks (or so) I carry a bleep ready for such an eventuality. Does that mean that the Govt plans to carry one out?
    Do you ever cease to give someone the benefit of the doubt? What would they have to do for that to happen?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, that's a no then?

    It's okay to kill Israelis. Would help if you were clearer Clan, but I guess it's as much what you don't say as what you do.

    It's sad to see that you don't understand what words "I condemn" mean that.. well... I condemn the actions but it is interesting to note that you will not go that far yourself. I am pleased that we are clear here now. I will condemn killing of civillians, you won't.

    NB I think you'll find that I have always maintained that invasion [of any country] is always an option. Are you advocating the invasion of Israel now?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Do you ever cease to give someone the benefit of the doubt?

    The glass is always half full... ;)

    I have the mindset which allows me to look at things from different viewpoints - not always the one I agree with. I was interested in your comment earlier about "understanding" the motivation for Hezbollah etc. I go further, you also have to understand the motivation for Israel, Iran, Syria, the US, the UK etc etc etc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Third Reich could have only dreamed of having such constent excuse making for its clear and intended invasions and occupations of Czechoslovakia and Poland. Seems the current generations is severely wanting in consistent application of principle but also of history itself. Not surprising since nowadays anything that isnt mentioned on the nightly news for more than a fortnight is considered worthy of being relegated to the dustbin of forgetfulness.

    Contingency plans ideed! Nothing could further from the truth!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you also have to understand the motivation for Israel

    That motivation, nay AGENDA, has already been outlined and substantively exposed to you repeatedly for the neocolonialist ethnocidal campaign it has long been. Sad thing is you persist in refusing to call it what it is, namely a purposed crime against humanity.

    Oh and while we're at it, another item on the status quo hypocrisy of western media propaganda regarding Hezbollah...

    http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9511
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That motivation, nay AGENDA

    Ditto for Iran and Syria really.

    Which is kind of my point, the motivation may well be an agenda. So if that word helps float you boat Clan feel free to use it. Point is, if you understand that agenda then perhaps you can find a way to deal with it. What you must remember though is that we aren't talking about a single agenda here but many...
    purposed crime against humanity

    Specifically?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ditto for Iran and Syria really

    Actually no, MoK, but then with your utterly shallow understanding of foreign policy its unsurprising that you fail to differentiate between countries which are actively perpetrating war of AGGRESSION against other sovereign states and those which are seeking to counter that aggression, just as we did against Nazi Germany lo these many generations ago.

    Unfortunately you apparently buy into the meainstream revisionist trend which paints the aggressors as justified whilst those who seek to defend against them as the villains. How those who sacrificed their lives in the hope our nations would actually stand for "never again" must be turning in their graves to see the claimants of democracy (and citizens thereof like yourself and the other cheerleaders for ethnocide on these boards) and the "rule of law" disregard both principles when they stand in the way of their expansionist aspirations.

    For you condemnation is but a pathetic wave of the hand with a ready "but" to give appeasement to those nations and politicos you obviously side with in some childish "our team" fashion.

    As for presuming, as you never tire of doing, to define my clearly stated views, you once again show yourself every bit the equal of dis in missing the mark. Nothing unsurprising or unprecedented there either.

    Since you persist in refusing to read any substantive analyses presented to aid you in gaining an ounce of comprehension, this will simply drag on ad infinitum.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So Hezbollah which has deliberately and indiscriminately murdered Israeli civilians through rocket attacks, many of the victims actually being Muslim Arab-Israelis is a 'rightful Lebanese resistance'? Disgusting Clan.

    Just as disgusting as your blind support for the rights of the Israeli's to indiscrimnately murder civilians, invade sovereign nation's territory, kidnap political opponents and imprison people for years on no charges.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    actively perpetrating war of AGGRESSION against other sovereign states

    Irael is a soverign state, non?

    Syria has actively perpetuated a war of agression aginst them since inception, non?
    Unfortunately you apparently buy into the meainstream revisionist trend which paints the aggressors as justified whilst those who seek to defend against them as the villains.

    Syria, in supporting Hezbollah, are not acting in defence of anything. They are trying to push their own agenda.

    But it's interesting, again, how you link me with justifying Israeli agression. Something which, on numerous occasions now, I have disputed.
    For you condemnation is but a pathetic wave of the hand with a ready "but" to give appeasement to those nations and politicos you obviously side with in some childish "our team" fashion.

    Our team?

    Not mine, matey.

    But interesting, again, that you talk of appeasement whilst defending, nah acting as an apologist for, the right of Hezbollah to kill civillians.
    As for presuming, as you never tire of doing, to define my clearly stated views, you once again show yourself every bit the equal of dis in missing the mark. Nothing unsurprising or unprecedented there either.

    You views are clear? Pull the other one.

    You want to be clear then answer yes or no. Do you condemn the deliberate targetting of civillians on either side?
    Since you persist in refusing

    Please, point out where I have refused to do that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Syria has actively perpetuated a war of agression aginst them since inception, non?

    Actually no. Syria acted once in any capacity that could be called an invasion of Israeli sovereignty and that was nearly 40 years ago. Let us also remember that the state of Israel was born of an intentioned ideological committment to genocide, militant dispossession and expulsion of over 700,000 rightful indigenous inhabitants (and intent which continues steadily to this day in the furtherance of the Greater Israel tenet of the Zionist agenda, which includes confiscation of large swathes of sovereign Lebanese and Syrian land).


    Once again, rather than repeatedly demonstrating how readily you can regurgitate populist sanitised mass media assisted mythology about Israel, the conflict and the actions/motivations of Israel's oppressed and terrorised Palestinian co-inhabitants, as well as the aactions/motivations of its neighbouring arab states, I suggest you go and do some real reading on the subject for a change. Go on and stun me with something more than the routine dis styled apologetic you always make.
    Syria, in supporting Hezbollah, are not acting in defence of anything. They are trying to push their own agenda.

    But it's interesting, again, how you link me with justifying Israeli agression. Something which, on numerous occasions now, I have disputed.

    Incorrect. By supporting Hezbollah they are supporting yet another line of defence against a well known ideological agenda of militant expansionism which ultimately seeks to violate Syrian sovereign territory as well. Wake up and smell the real agenda driving this conflict.

    No, you have denied you have not disputed, not with substantive analysis nor demonstration of anything other than repeated "vuts" and villifications of those who have ever been in the defensive position since first the Irgun, Haganah and Lehi (Stern Gang) first launched their terrorist campaigns of nationalist colonisation. But don't let the ugly and unpopular truth dissuade you from your penchant for denial.
    But interesting, again, that you talk of appeasement whilst defending, nah acting as an apologist for, the right of Hezbollah to kill civillians.

    Since the very claim that this is the intention and action of Hezbollah eminates directly from the propaganda factory of the ISraeli state and the IDF command structure itself, you only continue to prove my assertion of your lack of effort in reading what has been provided as a primer in that regard.

    Hezbollah did not commence rocket attacks until AFTER Olmert had cravenly unleashed his full arsenal of maddog war criminals on civilian population centers with the concurrent cry of "we will set the clock back on Lebanon 20 years" from his military chief of staff. Further, the claim of "hiding behind civilians is nowhere more demonstrable than in Israel itself which, if you had bothered reading the Jonathan Cook articles (from Inside the conflict zone itself) you would know.

    Keep on regurgitating lies and propaganda though, it will keep you in good stead with Dis, I'm sure.
    Do you condemn the deliberate targetting of civillians on either side?

    And again you had your answer, YES. The only side demonstrably and deliberately targetting civilians (with US provided cluster bombs and "precision"-guided weapons to boot) is Israel. When that reality finally sinks in past the thick coating of santisied BS you love to spout, do be sure to let me know.


    Please, point out where I have refused to do that.

    Not enough space nor interest to quote every post youve made in this and every other thread where you demonstrate your penchant for returning to the same worn out mantras and populist phraseologies which offer excuse to Israel and villification of any Arab effort to stand against its never-ending aggressions.

    As above, perhaps when you actually spend some time digging into some real in depth analysis, youll finally recognise how constant your apologetics have been to date.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hezbollah did not commence rocket attacks until AFTER Olmert had cravenly unleashed his full arsenal of maddog war criminals on civilian population centers

    Who said anything about rocket attacks?

    Who said anything about attacks only happening in the the last 33 days?
    And again you had your answer, YES. The only side demonstrably and deliberately targetting civilians (with US provided cluster bombs and "precision"-guided weapons to boot) is Israel. When that reality finally sinks in past the thick coating of santisied BS you love to spout, do be sure to let me know.

    Nice caveat. Well, actually a bad one.

    Are suicide bombers targetting civillians? Are rockets (as you raise it) into towns "targetting" civillians?

    If not, why not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let us also remember that the state of Israel was born of an intentioned ideological committment to genocide, militant dispossession and expulsion of over 700,000 rightful indigenous inhabitants

    Like it or not, Clan, Israel is a state recognised by the UN and directly recognised by nearly every Govt in the world - a couple of exceptions.

    I know how the nation was formed, I do read much of what you post. I see no point in commenting because either a) we agree or b) I'd be wasting my time because you are already convinced or it's authenticity otherwise you wouldn't post it.

    You can criticise Zionism, and I will not disagree. You cannot, though, defend the actions of hezbollah and Hamas unless you are also prepared to argue for the right of Native Americans to attack US Govt (as a single example).
    By supporting Hezbollah they are supporting yet another line of defence against a well known ideological agenda of militant expansionism which ultimately seeks to violate Syrian sovereign territory as well.

    Dream on. That isn't even worth a retort.
    Not enough space nor interest

    I know the feeling. Mrs MoK just had to poke me because I fell asleep the first time I read your reply.

    :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I fell asleep the first time I read your reply

    My sentiments toward the lion's share of what you post in retort as well, my good man. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You have to fucking love the hypocrisy don't you (blue paragraphs are mine):
    Israel humbled by arms from Iran

    Abandoned Hizbollah positions in Lebanon yesterday revealed conclusive evidence that Syria - and almost certainly Iran - provided the anti-tank missiles that have blunted the power of Israel's once invincible armour.

    Outside one of the town's two mosques a van was found filled with green casings about 6ft long. The serial numbers identified them as AT-5 Spandrel anti-tank missiles. The wire-guided weapon was developed in Russia but Iran began making a copy in 2000.

    Beyond no-man's land, in the east of the village, was evidence of Syrian-supplied hardware. In a garden next to a junction used as an outpost by Hizbollah lay eight Kornet anti-tank rockets, described by Brig Mickey Edelstein, the commander of the Nahal troops who took Ghandouriyeh, as "some of the best in the world".

    Written underneath a contract number on each casing were the words: "Customer: Ministry of Defence of Syria. Supplier: KBP, Tula, Russia."

    Brig Edelstein said: "If they tell you that Syria knew nothing about this, just look. This is the evidence. Proof, not just talk."

    [Brig Edelstein is part of the Israeli Defence Forces, which have recently received thousands of tonnes of high-explosives in the shape of state of the art laser guided missiles from the USA]

    Last night, President George W. Bush blamed Iran and Syria for fomenting the conflict between Israel and Hizbollah.

    George W. Bush is the President of the USA who authorised the supply of hundreds of five-tonne laser guided bombs to Israel only the other week.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=TXT51IUZYC1EPQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/15/wmid15.xml


    Are those fuckwits for real? :rolleyes: :D
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Not completey on topic - but just found that you can see the full version of Death in Gaza now on google video.

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3174939144671427658&q=death+in+gaza
    Weekender Offender 
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Aladdin wrote:
    You have to fucking love the hypocrisy don't you (blue paragraphs are mine):

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=TXT51IUZYC1EPQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/15/wmid15.xml


    Are those fuckwits for real? :rolleyes: :D


    Haha, one in the eye for Israel! Russian Anti-Tank weapons (Especially the Spandrel) are some of the worlds best. Even tasking on the Merkava, one of the worlds best tanks.

    Well... the resistance gains good weaponary. All they need now is some anti-air that could affect the planes. Highly unlikley Israel is going to give them an Sa-6 Gainful though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm growing increasingly tired of those self-righteous chickenhawks saying that we don't understand the plight of the Israelis and that the Israeli attacks since the kidnapping crisis began has been "justified".

    I would simply like to find out whether such people simply think Arabs are not human beings and their lives are expendable, or if the IDF cheerleaders are actually a sandwich short of a picnic and genuinely believe Israel hasn't been targetting civilians on purpose.



    1427204.jpg


    That the Israelis are targetting civilians is beyond doubt. You don't destroy entire neighbourhoods if you're just targetting militants (unless you are so breathtakingly thick as to believe militants all live happily together in particular neighbourhoods and that innocent civilians don't live near them).

    So, you know who you are. Those of you who say Israel's response has been adequate and within their rights, would you please clarify your position now?

    A. I admit, even through gritted teeth, that Israel's response has been unjustified, excessive and murderous

    B. I am a heartless, nasty being and believe it is okay to kill innocent people on purpose

    C. I am a gullible fool who genuinely believes Israel is not targetting civilians on purpose

    Well? A, B or C?

    .


    I honestly believe that the middle east is 1 big desaster zone and as much as I hate to sound racist I realiy do feel that its the minority of the muslim community and the way some of those muslims express there religion. I recently had a loving partner who was half muslim and I learnt alot about her faith and the Quran (there Bible) and in now way does it say that violence is justified in any sence with any other human being...its just so un justified that there should be war in Iraq - Afganistan and Isreal.

    Its petty, stupid, immature and if people in high positions cant even agree over prisoners, then I worry about the world in the future. How can someone be in charge and have so much responsibility and get away with mass murder like this?
    Oh im so mad at this subject!!
    :banghead:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fameosity wrote:
    I recently had a loving partner who was half muslim and I learnt alot about her faith and the Quran (there Bible) and in now way does it say that violence is justified in any sence with any other human being...its just so un justified that there should be war in Iraq - Afganistan and Isreal.

    So does the Bible and other religious texts. There's more in the Quran that teaches peace than war. As with all religious, these passages have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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