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Canada's PM doubts Israeli bombing of UN outpost deliberate/Hezbollah attack UN
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Article.
- Also, unreported by the biased BBC and Channel 4 News (the latter can now even be fairly characterised as part of the Hezbollah propaganda machine) is that UN posts are repeatedly being fired upon and fired from by Hezbollah terrorists. UN Interim Force in Lebanon
Another UN press release.
And another.
Meanwhile,
- Also, unreported by the biased BBC and Channel 4 News (the latter can now even be fairly characterised as part of the Hezbollah propaganda machine) is that UN posts are repeatedly being fired upon and fired from by Hezbollah terrorists. UN Interim Force in Lebanon
One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group
Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base
in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary
reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with
the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was
taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa. He was operated
on, and his condition is now reported as stable.
Another UN press release.
Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. It was reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and
At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.
And another.
It was reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Marwahin, Alma Ash Shab, Brashit, and At Tiri.
Meanwhile,
Story.Retired Canadian Major-General Lewis MacKenzie has said in an interview with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that the Canadian soldier killed at a UN post in Lebanon on Tuesday had complained in e-mails that Hizbullah fighters were all over his position. “They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.”
Without even checking the facts, UN Secretary-General Annan had immediately accused Israel of deliberately attacking a UN position without reason.
The deceased UN observer wrote to me saying that Israel was responding to Hizbullah gunmen firing rockets, and not aiming at the United Nations observers, said MacKenzie.
MacKenzie is the former commander of UN troops in Bosnia.
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Comments
I don't think anyone is suprised to see people caught in the middle of a war being hit, don't you feel that the reason this made the news much more were the details of the events - hours of shelling, repeated requests for the shelling to stop, followed by the targetting of the bunker. To quote the same link
That then being followed by the destruction of the three story building they were in just seems to be a much bigger story than small arms fire.
And Israel has stressed the precise targetting of it's actions, that it is capable of not hitting civilian or independant targets, that it is acting in an ethical framework (regardless of whether you agree of not) is what made the story so much more to me than normal casualties of war.
I'm not sure you can have it both ways, to have an army that claims to be specifically targetting only hostiles, and then claim you've just accidentially hit the wrong people.
Hezbollah after all couldn't give a fuck who they hit, they are firing rockets in civilian targets, and certainly aren't claiming to be doing anything else. However horrendous and repulsive this conflict is, there doesn't seem any lack of hipocracy on their side - they are just trying to kill as many Israelis as possible.
By claiming to be doing something better than just killing as many arabs as possible, the Israeli army must then expect to be held to a higher standard, one that they can't just ignore when accidents (or the deliberate murder of UN staff depending on your perspective) happen.
What I find most surprising about your position is that you imply ever Israeli mistake (or deliberate action if you see it that way) is reported but no Hezbollah attack is. Yet you've deliberately put up biased reports in this very thread yourself. You highlight the ignored events of the small arms fire and shelling but don't mention what is also mentioned and also not reported by the BBC, as far as I know
Was the BBC being pro-Israeli by not reporting this in the same why they are being pro-Hezbollah in your eyes by not reporting the shell hits?
Do you also know how many Israeli shells have fallen near other UN posts in this conflict, or how many UN soliders have been targetted by small arms fire? Or would the BBC not reporting that, simply because it isn't a surprising story in a war, not help to build your case of a biased news service?
Depends how you interpret his words. Guardian.
Partly but then I've seen the BBC and Channel 4 News frequently report extensively other incidents relating to the IDF that are comparable to the instances involving Hezbollah listed in my original post. I've heard nothing from either on Hezbollah's similar incidents...
Israel does not deliberately target civilians or the UN. Hezbollah through operating from areas with a high concentration of civilians and effectively using civilians as human shields has made Israel's aim of defeating Hezbollah whilst minimising civilian impact extremely difficult.
Indeed.
I'm not saying the media should ignore Israeli mistakes. I just find it one-sided to emphasise Israeli mistakes and even repeatedly claim that they're deliberate (which is somewhat spurious) and effectively ignore clear-cut, deliberate cases of targeting civilians or the UN on the other side. But, I do accept that Israel and the IDF are (rightly) held to a higher standard than the terrorists they are fighting.
I'm not sure what you mean by biased reports in this thread. Yahoo News, UN Press Releases and Globe & Mail, a Canadian newspaper do not really seem especially partisan sources. Not as if I've posted AIPAC links on this thread. Of course I'm using a few examples, I don't have the resources to make an exhaustive investigation into BBC bias on this subject. Although, others have and have made some good points.
I've only said the BBC is 'biased' - it's Channel 4 News and the odious Jon Snow that seem pro-Hezbollah. The BBC's position to me is simply summarised as anti-Israeli. (Watching and comparing the coverage I believe there is a difference).
My view of the BBC being biased is based on more than what I've said in this thread. Take a look at the excellent Biased BBC blog. The BBC's coverage of Israel is poor. For a start, not exactly bias but the BBC's reporting is lazy. While the BBC wouldn't dream of sending a correspondent to Paris who couldn't speak French hardly any BBC reporters in Israel speak Hebrew. (Most only speak Arabic and English, while most Israelis do speak English it still means that the BBC don't get much everyday conversational experience with Israelis - they rely more on official government spokesmen. In contrast to the Palestinians who the BBC reporters on the ground will speak to in Arabic...It's not a massive thing but in subtle ways I think it affects the BBC's coverage. And more than anything there's no excuse for a journalist working in Israel not to know Hebrew).
Anyway do you seriously think the BBC's coverage of Israel is fair and impartial?
Edit: http://www.honestreporting.co.uk also gives the pov of some who find certain media outlets to have an anti-Israel bias.
how aobut not doing what hezbollah wants ie a carpet bombing, and instead going for the method of defeating ideologies long term by winning hearts and minds, as currently in that respect hezbollah are doing wonderfully if you read the guardian today in which they just say they are using the fact the IDF are impatient and that gives them mroe support by doing virtually nothing apart from occasional rocket strikes to keep israel going with the bombing
surely common sense should prevail but with the people who control the israel army it appears not
How much longer are you going to cling to this fantasy of yours?
It's very simple.
- UN post was well known to Israel for years.
- UN officials contacted Israel not once, not twice, not three times, but 10 fucking times asking them to stop fucking shelling them.
- Israel happily complied... it stopped the shelling alright, switching to a large high explosive laser guided bomb that obliterated the post and killed four innocent people on purpose.
Deliberate. Targetting. Of. Civilians. And UN. Officials.
End of.
After all, anyone who criticises is "biased" and "pro-Hezbollah". I don't know why Dis didn't just go all the way and compare Snow to a concentration camp guard- that's a particular favourite of the pro-Israeli right-wing.
You sometimes make some very worthwhile and intelligent contributions and back them up...It's disappointing that you don't do that in discussions relating to Israel and simply adopt the standard anti-Israel line.
While from your uninformed pov I'm a mere 'Israeli apologist' I'd like to point out that I support a two state solution, I think a Palestinian state is long overdue and in relation to current events I support the solution being proposed by Tony Blair and President Bush/Condoleeza Rice. While the left is quick to sneer at the US/UK's aims at reaching a solution it is imo the most likely path to produce long term peace and stability. The UN has long before recent events ordered the disarming of Hezbollah, this must happen. Hezbollah had stockpiled weapons and in today's Sunday Times a Hezbollah leader even admitted current events had been planned for six years - planned from the moment Israel withdrew from Lebanon in fact. The UN and Lebanon have failed to disarm Hezbollah and Hezbollah's provocation of Israel through the missile attacks and kidnapping of soldiers merited an Israeli response. I have seen nobody make a good argument to the contrary, tbh I have not really seen any substance from the anti-Israel brigade. And the ultimate fact remains that those that started this escalation in the conflict could end it almost immediately, their failure to do so is not criticised by those such as yourself - who seem more interested in criticising Israel rather than taking a balanced look at current events and searching for a solution.
And er wtf are you talking about regarding Snow and a concentration camp guard comparison? - Er and how is that a favourite of the pro-Israeli right wing? Or have I greatly misunderstood Ken Livingstone's anti-Israel comments...:rolleyes:
Incidentally Dis I have noticed your neglecting the other thread all day, and the news about Israel's latest feat.
Can't blame you, in a way. The child murdering has reached a level that even you would be hard to justify.
How proud you must be of the IDF and the Israeli government.
Tbh you're as blinded and one-sided as the most fanatical right wing Israeli settler. Like those on the extremes of the conflicting parties in the region you are unable to see the other side.
What do you think of NATO's military intervention in Kosovo? NATO did much of what Israel has been lambasted for; they attacked electricity and television propaganda and NATO forces excellent (but not perfect) precision targeting accidentally killed innocent people.
Israel is fighting a war she did not start. Hezbollah which has waged war upon Israel has deliberately placed itself within areas containing a high concentration of civilians exasperating the situation. In fighting Hezbollah innocent people will inevitably but tragically get caught up in Israel's actions; that is ultimately a distressing fact of modern day warfare. Fighting is not taking place on a distant battlefield but in the towns and the cities; the Israelis didn't choose to fight in such an environment nor did the Israelis choose to enter this conflict. However, the failure of the UN to disarm Hezbollah and the inability of Lebanon to do so and the actions of Hezbollah - influenced and funded by Iran have provoked Israel into a war. And what we are seeing are the grim realities of war. I don't want a repeat performance, if Hezbollah is not disarmed - in a few weeks or a few months current events will repeat themselves. The Israelis have to finish the job, Hezbollah must be dismantled and with the help of the international community Lebanese sovereignty restored and secure borders between Israel and Lebanon re-established. For long term peace to be realised I feel that must happen, I wonder if you share that desire for long term stability?
In WWII the Allies defeat of Hitler came at a high price to many sides, amongst them German civilians. Was the ultimate goal of the Allies invalid because of that? I don't think so. Israel's aims are right, even the likes of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia it seems have discreetly acknowledged that. The Israelis should of course act with even greater care and restraint where appropriate and there needs to be even greater openness and accountability into the IDF and government decision-making - but the overall goals of present Israeli operations are absolutely right.
The difference being that Israel is a nation state and should know better. Of course Hizbollah's actions are disgraceful. However they are not two evenly matched sides. Israel are a state in contravention of lots of UN resolutions. They are behaving like terrorists themselves. Dis needs to stop clinging to his fantasies and get his head around this.
Don't get me wrong, I like it when that happens. It shows to everyone that the other party hasn't got a real argument to put forward.
LOL. If you really think Kosovo bears any resemblance with what the Israelis are doing you're even more deluded than I thought.
Israel responded to the capture of two soldiers by a completely unnaceptable and disproportionate bombing campaign against civilian and completely unrelated targets. Not only this constitutes a violation of international law, it actually prompted Hezbollah to respond by launching rockets back. Way to go!
Israel has deliberately destroyed entire neighbourhoods, killed many civilians, attacked ambulances and rescue workers and even massacred UN observers. Don't you dare compare with with Kosovo.
Aren't the 60 women and children murdered yesterday enough? What is it going to take for you to admit that Israel is commiting an unspeakable atrocity completely disproportionate and unsjustified??? Have you got no heart?
Funny you mention WWII. I have no doubt whatsoever that every last single victim of the Holocause will be spinning in their graves with absolute disgust and revulsion at what the sight of their people changing from victims to evil aggresors in such short period of time.
Ain't history funny?
Wtf. Nowhere on this thread have I said criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Read my post ffs. I said...
Well you're not reading my posts properly.
Er Hezbollah missile attacks preceded Israeli operations in Lebanon.
What happened in Kosovo then? Did no civilians die? :rolleyes: Do you think Israel and her supporters are happy at the suffering of the Lebanese people? I want this to end as soon as possible but I know that long term peace and stability is impossible unless Hezbollah is disarmed.
At the most there would have been a few home made crap rockets- and then I doubt they started. The Hezbollah onslaught only took place after Israel decided to bomb Lebanon to fuck as revenge for the kidnapping of two soldiers.
Of course they did. There were cases of negiglence or incompetence as well. But I don't recall entire neighbourhoods being destroyed out of spite. Do you?
Are you still seriously trying to suggest that the destruction of entire villages and neighbourhoods and the deaths of nearly 800 civilians in little more than two weeks are anything but deliberate killings?
Do explain that to me...
Israel and its supporters clearly do not give a flying fuck about the Lebanese people.
Otherwise they wouldn't destroy entire neighbourhoods out of spite.
Would they?
Well I'm a moderate supporter of Israel and I've been frequently made out to be some kind of fanatical Zionist by the likes of Clandestine on these forums...But, the description I have used of you is a pretty fair one imo. MoK has been critical of Israel yet I would not apply the same term to him because he seems balanced and he acknowledges that Israel is not solely to blame. You cannot see past your hatred for Israel, you can't see that long term peace requires the disarming of Hezbollah - something even the UN recognised long ago.
Hezbollah is operating from areas with an extremely high concentration of civilians. Can you not comprehend that?
But whereas you don't appear to go as far as the likes of the Matadore (who to be honest I think is too extreme to be a true person), your failure to condemn Israeli excesses doesn't make you very moderate in my eyes, I'm afraid to say.
I tell you where I don't get it from: the Israeli Army radio and the spokesperson for the Israeli government.
It was Israel that started to indiscriminately bomb Lebanon, including Beirut (what on earth has Beirut got to do with Southern Lebanon and the kidnapping of two soldiers by Hezbollah remains a mystery to the world), prompting Hezbollah to fire rockets en masse. Not that it would be justified for Israel to destroy entire neighbourhoods even if Hezbollah had fired first. Not if Israel want to be seen as a civilised nation instead of a bunch of state terrorists no better than the ones they're fighting.
There were no rockets fired and no Hezbollah operatives filling up the streets of this Beirut neighbourhood:
Were there?
There was no justification whatsoever for the deliberate destruction of an entire neighbourhood. None whatsoever. And you know it.
You can deny your fanatical and consistently unprincipled position for what it is as much as you deny being the sockpuppet of clear and well recognised racist hardline Zionist pundits whom you routinely parrot in these forums (i.e. Daniel Pipes and Alan Derschowitz). The fact remains that YOU categorise yourself with your every post as a utterly indoctrinated, politically and historically naive moutpiece for views (and the persons associated therewith) you are obviously incapable of recognising for their inherently undemocratic, neo-fascist character.
Sadly I dont hold much hope for any dawning of critical rationality in you anytime soon.
I think you're probably thinking of Richard Pipes, father of Daniel Pipes. Richard Pipes is an expert on Russian history, his son Daniel Pipes writes regularly in The New York Sun and The Jerusalem Post and his articles on Israel and Islamism are well worth reading. He's got a few books out too which I intend to read sometime.
He writes for two excellent newspapers...
Would you know if it's possible to get hold of JPost in England btw? I know they sell it some places in the states, but was wondering about its avaliability in the UK as well.
Hate to break it to you my young nemesis but writing for one newspaper or another makes that which he publishes and preaches no less transparently onerous, misinformative and fascist in character.
I think in the States they print a US version? I don't think it's printed in Europe, although you might be able to get Israeli copies a few days out of date. I know I've seen the Hebrew version of Haaretz sold by some newsagents, probably for Israeli expats I guess...I'd imagine too it's a day or two out. Probably easier to stick to the internet versions.
Israel are the ones with the power and the control.
Israel are the ones who are murdering ten times as many people as Hezbollah would ever hope to achieve. Israel are the ones who are reacting out of all proportion- lets not forget that the IDF were the ones who started bombing the bejeezus out of the Lebanon, not the other way around.
Israel are the ones who refuse to come to the negotiating table with a sensible peace offer.
The ball is entirely in Israel's court, and it has been for fifty years, and instead of making peace Israel choose to kick the faces of the rest of the Middle East. They continue to kick and kick, and then wonder why the rest fight back with suicide bombers.
In the wider picture, I hold Israel to blame for what is happening. 100%. They have the power, and use it for war not peace. Same old, same old.
Rice is a liar and a cheat, working for a liar and a cheat of a president.
Anyone who attacks Israel is branded an anti-semite in many hard-right circles. You should perhaps read what Jacq has said on here before about the critics of Israel.
Says the man who refuses to condemn attacks on Israeli civillians.
They are? On what basis do you say that?
Can they control Hezbollah and Hamas for example?
But they continue to hope of course.
The number killed is not really relevant though. Both are war crimes and I don't think that the Hague differentiates between 100 and 1,000.
Except that wastn't the case. The crossing of the UN line started before the killing of eight (?) Israeli soldiers, the killing started before the kidnapping, the kidnapping started before the rockets and the rockets started before the bombs and the invasion.
The first act of war here, in this escalation, was not Israels.
Funny, I've yet to hear Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah calling for talks.
I'm not so sure. I think that they know why. They are just willing to be participants because they want to continue to exist.