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FAO those who think Israel's actions have been justified & proportioned

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Ah but you don't get it MR... the IRA and the Catholic community in NI are not evil Muslims. You cannot just bomb them like that.

    Dirty Arabs on the other hand...
    thats what i'm begining to suspect.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    thats what i'm begining to suspect.

    It took you this long? :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    :confused:

    the N.I conflict is different from what we have here.
    can you point out the differnces your thinking of in this situation of fighting terrorists who are attacking and killing civilians and our responses to such atrocities please?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    It took you this long? :p
    i'm a bit slow.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK and the rest of the war criminal apologists in this thread might as well justify the wholesale destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto since those resident were, by the same manner of propagandistic excuse making of that era, threatening the safety and welfare of the German people by fighting back against their oppressors.

    But of course, being the supposed "singularly unique archetype of evil" ingrained into the Western public psyche, I'm sure MoK will circumvent all similarity of principle between that example and the present display by Israel of documented crimes against against humanity as set forth in the Nuremberg Principles, because after all, those were Jewish vicitms and these are just those Arabs the public has been conditioned to view as less than human.

    More cognitive dissonance at its most transparent.

    As you already know, I'm quite thick, so mind explaining me how you can rationally compare the Warsaw Ghetto and what's happening now?

    Second of all this is not a war against "dirty arabs" as some of you have disgustingly put it. May I remind you that a Hizbolla Katusha hit 2 Israeli Arab children yesterday? That one of the first Israeli soldiers to die was a Druze?

    Aladdin, no I do not condone the killing of civilians and truly feel sorry for them.
    But I do believe that Israel was right in taking action. Though maybe it could have been done in another way. I don't know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Aladdin, no I do not condone the killing of civilians and truly feel sorry for them.
    But I do believe that Israel was right in taking action. Though maybe it could have been done in another way. I don't know.
    Yeah it should definitely have been done in another way, but it's good of you to question the manner of Israel's response.

    Unlike a couple of others who think it's alright to destroy entire neighbourhoods.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I clicked on your message link at the bottom Aladdin - how middle class can a boycott campaign get
    Such as the items to be found on the shelves of Selfridges and Harrods
    and
    M&S underwear;

    I laughed even more that the campaign is so behind the news that it thinks Conrad Black still owns the Telegraph.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Telegraph might no longer be owned by Black but the paper remains as pro-zionist as ever.

    I reckon the evil hand of Barbara Amiel is still pulling the strings there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The Telegraph might no longer be owned by Black but the paper remains as pro-zionist as ever.

    I reckon the evil hand of Barbara Amiel is still pulling the strings there.

    That's alright I boycott the Guardian for its leftist sympathies (or rather I do the next best thing and only read it free online which has the added advantage of making them pay more for servers).

    Still if they've got the Tele wrong - how can you be sure the rest is accurate and you could be boycotting companies which are either Arab owned or don't invest in Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There might be some grey areas, sure, but some are clear cut. M&S has massive links with Israeli suppliers. Caterpillar sells Israel custom-made armoured bulldozers for ethnic cleansing (not that I'm thinking of buying one anyway). Sara Lee is another obvious one.

    But there is some progress already. One of the sites I was browsing earlier tells that ''due to customer pressure'' Tesco is phasing out Israeli peppers :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    There might be some grey areas, sure, but some are clear cut. M&S has massive links with Israeli suppliers. Caterpillar sells Israel custom-made armoured bulldozers for ethnic cleansing (not that I'm thinking of buying one anyway). Sara Lee is another obvious one.

    But there is some progress already. One of the sites I was browsing earlier tells that ''due to customer pressure'' Tesco is phasing out Israeli peppers :)

    And how many Arabs has that put out of a job? How far has that pushed Israel further into a corner? How much sucour has that offered to radicals on the Palestinian side who don't feel any need to compromise?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't the boycotting symptomatic of the collective punishment mentality that you so deplore in the actions of the IDF?

    Some Israeli farmer is not deserving of being punished for the actions of the IDF in the same way that the people of Lebanon are not guilty for the kidnapping of Israeli military by Hizbullah surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    And how many Arabs has that put out of a job?
    Not many I should think.
    How far has that pushed Israel further into a corner?
    Not far enough. For it to have an effect a lot more people have to join.

    But then it's not just about trying to change things. It's about having a conscience and not wanting to support a State that commits terrible crimes against other people.
    How much sucour has that offered to radicals on the Palestinian side who don't feel any need to compromise?
    I doubt it has much of an effect on the Palestinians either way.

    But it is certainly nice to let them know a lot of people in the West do not approve of their governments' cowardly stance towards the conflict.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Isn't the boycotting symptomatic of the collective punishment mentality that you so deplore in the actions of the IDF?

    Some Israeli farmer is not deserving of being punished for the actions of the IDF in the same way that the people of Lebanon are not guilty for the kidnapping of Israeli military by Hizbullah surely?
    Only one tends to punish the abuser not the abused.

    And whereas that might indeed affect some farmer negatively, the aim is to put pressure on the Israeli government and State. Better doing it that way than doing it the usual way, which is bomging everyone to fuck.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Co-op own brand !! ??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone ever thought that these guys are going to start world war three, over something stupid and simple

    and this time it isnt going to be franz ferdinand, it will be the arctic monkeys
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmintdev/230/23002.htm
    and you luke should have a read of this ...from a reputable group of people?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MrG wrote:
    Anyone ever thought that these guys are going to start world war three, over something stupid and simple

    and this time it isnt going to be franz ferdinand, it will be the arctic monkeys
    back in the sixties andy warhol said we would sit at home and watch world war three on the telly.
    it didn't realy make much sense at the time but it does now.
    WW3 started with the invasion of iraq and afghanistan.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Not many I should think.

    I'd have thought that it would be pretty important to find out - given that most of the people employed in picking them will be unskilled labour and disproportionately Arab.
    Not far enough. For it to have an effect a lot more people have to join.

    But then it's not just about trying to change things. It's about having a conscience and not wanting to support a State that commits terrible crimes against other people.

    Why are you just boycotting israel then? why not boycott the states which allow their territory to be used to launch rocket attacks against civilian populations? Why not boycott China? Or Cuba, come to that? Did you used to boycott the Eastern Block countries?
    I doubt it has much of an effect on the Palestinians either way.

    But it is certainly nice to let them know a lot of people in the West do not approve of their governments' cowardly stance towards the conflict

    and that if they continue in their path, hellbent though it is on destruction (self as much as towards Israel) that they will have your support?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    I'd have thought that it would be pretty important to find out - given that most of the people employed in picking them will be unskilled labour and disproportionately Arab.
    Rather unlikely. But even if that were true, infinitely more Palestinians- all of them in fact- are suffering in far greater extent by the ghetto conditions and the permanent state of seige, war and destruction the illegal occupation bears on them.
    Why are you just boycotting israel then? why not boycott the states which allow their territory to be used to launch rocket attacks against civilian populations? Why not boycott China? Or Cuba, come to that? Did you used to boycott the Eastern Block countries?
    No one can fight all battles at once. Does it really matter if someone is not consistent? Boycotting someone who deserves it is certainly better than boycotting nobody at all. Two wrongs (or in this case, dozens of wrongs) don't make a right, and whether there are other States as bad as Israel is irrelevant.

    I can't afford to support all the charities that exist. I guess I'd better stop the monthly donations to the 2 I support, lest I am seen as a hypocrite.

    and that if they continue in their path, hellbent though it is on destruction (self as much as towards Israel) that they will have your support?
    For as long as they remind an extremely oppresed, desperately poor and homeless people they will have my support. Not that I have a direct debit set up with Hamas or anything :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im consistent, i never boycott anyone country ever because i cant be bothered. Whether i disagree with what they do or simply not care, what difference does a one person boycott of that country make when im not going to be consistently boycotting every country i disagree as everyone should.

    Basically, what is happening in the middle east i find myself more and more apathetic to each day i read more and more arguments on these boards...it actually makes me care less not more.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    its not a one person boycott though. Its plenty of people, and more to the point, its about refusing to give your money to causes/people you hate/disagree with.
    its about not having blood on your hands.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Boycotting Israel seems a bit useless anyway as the US will just give them more cash...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK and the rest of the war criminal apologists

    That's fucking rich coming from a man who has never condemned Hamas or any other terrorist organisation for attacking Israel, especially when you consider that in this very thread I have condemned Israel's actions rather tha defended them.

    For a man who claims to read widely you seem to struggle with reading comments made on these boards.
    I'm sure MoK will circumvent all similarity of principle between that example and the present display by Israel

    Again, missing comments I have previously made comparing the two directly. Though I must admit that I haven't done that in this thread. Worth noting that I also compared Israel to South Africa during apatheid in the past too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Actually it has. Israel and Hezbollah have once before exchanged bodies/prisoners.

    But not when they are also sharing weaponry....
    There aren't even any rockets MoK.

    So what is exploding in Haifa?
    If everyone agreed that both sides are as bad as each other and that they both need dealt with appropriately there would not be a problem.

    Agreed. So when are we going to see equal condemation? When are you going to post pictures of damaged Israeli buildings and metion the number of Israeli who have been killed?

    Or don't those lives matter to you?
    But we have the leaders of the free world keeping quiet if not openly defending the actions of one while condeming the actions of the other.

    That is another root cause of the conflict lasting for so long. One side is permanently left unchecked to do pretty much anything it pleases.

    I don't disagree. So why are the lines on these board also so divided, if it is that easy?

    What you really mean is that you want the "world leaders" to openly condemn Israel to the same degree (although I suspect that you want them cemndened to a greater degree) and yet you cannot do the same as you want from them.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Boycotting Israel seems a bit useless anyway as the US will just give them more cash...

    Well, perhaps it'll sink thier economy then? :D

    Two brids with one stone? :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But not when they are also sharing weaponry....
    I don't understand what you mean.


    So what is exploding in Haifa?
    You're missing the point. There weren't any rockets hidden in the Beirut neighbourhood that was flattened- not even Israel has suggested that, only Luke in his delusions.

    The South Beirut neighbourhood was flattened because Hezbollah "has its HQ there"- which usually means an office in a flat. They destroyed many buildings over a large area. There is no military justification whatsoever for that. The attack was a deliberate attempt to terrorise and to kill innocent people.


    Agreed. So when are we going to see equal condemation? When are you going to post pictures of damaged Israeli buildings and metion the number of Israeli who have been killed?

    Or don't those lives matter to you?
    I have condemned attacks on Israeli civilians repeteadly. However one's attention tends to get caught if some events are disproportionally bigger than the others. By far the larger atrocity here has been the killing of hundreds, terrorising of hundreds of thousands and massive, widespread basic infrastructure destruction spanning two different countries.

    A sense of perspective please.
    I don't disagree. So why are the lines on these board also so divided, if it is that easy?
    Oh that'll be because being a true rightwinger comes as a package: if you are a Republican/neocon/rightwing warmonger you must support the State of Israel blindly, no questions asked, no thinking allowed.
    What you really mean is that you want the "world leaders" to openly condemn Israel to the same degree (although I suspect that you want them cemndened to a greater degree) and yet you cannot do the same as you want from them.
    As said before, I have many times.

    Yet one side is comitting by far more serious crimes, by a long, long mile, and it doesn't get any criticism whatsoever from some. Even though it deserves not as much blame, but yes, a lot more blame than the other side.

    If a kid from a council state throws a stone at a policeman and the police responds by sending 200 coppers through the state and beating the shit out of every kid on sight, would you say both sides deserve the same amount of blame?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The South Beirut neighbourhood was flattened because Hezbollah "has its HQ there"- which usually means an office in a flat. They destroyed many buildings over a large area. There is no military justification whatsoever for that. The attack was a deliberate attempt to terrorise and to kill innocent people.

    Attacking enemy HQ's is certainly militarily justified. I think you might mean morally, which a) isn't the same thing b) may not be true if taking out the enemy control shortens the fighting and saves lives in the long term

    Yet one side is comitting by far more serious crimes, by a long, long mile, and it doesn't get any criticism whatsoever from some. Even though it deserves not as much blame, but yes, a lot more blame than the other side.

    If a kid from a council state throws a stone at a policeman and the police responds by sending 200 coppers through the state and beating the shit out of every kid on sight, would you say both sides deserve the same amount of blame?

    That's because you're missing the context. If the Middle East had been Eden up until a few days ago and then suddenly Israel out of the blue launches an unprovoked attack on its neighbours you may have a point. But that's not the true state of affairs, since 1948 Israel has been fighting for its existence. Its been at war, either singularly or together with the armed forces of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq. It has suffered regular suicide bombings in its cities. Its diplomats, athletes and ordinary citizens going about its business have been murdered all over the world. Only a couple of days ago it was the 12th anniversary of a bombing in argentina which killed 85 Jews (and no-one has been brought to justice for that or the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buneos Aires which killed 29).

    Now the Israeli's may be overreacting in this instance, but they've often been the victims too and perhaps given past history there a little bit nervous about rolling over and trusting to the leadership of an organisation who shot and then pushed an elderly, Jewish man overboard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Attacking enemy HQ's is certainly militarily justified. I think you might mean morally, which a) isn't the same thing b) may not be true if taking out the enemy control shortens the fighting and saves lives in the long term
    If they had sent a missile to destroy an office, a flat, even a whole floor in a building it might be a different matter (even though it still shows fuck all concern for the dozens if not hundreds of people living in the same block).

    But that's not what happened. The neighbourhood was bombed to complete oblivion. The entire neighbourhood. As the image on page one shows.

    It was a completely unjustifiable disgusting act of deliberate murder on innocent civilians, and if some people aren't even prepared to concede such undeniable and basic fact, we might all as well quit posting because there is no bloody point exchanging any more words. I might as well try to talk the wasps out of approaching my beer.

    As far as I'm concerned anyone who is prepared to defend the indefendable or to deny the bleeding obvious is an extremist beyond rationale.


    That's because you're missing the context. If the Middle East had been Eden up until a few days ago and then suddenly Israel out of the blue launches an unprovoked attack on its neighbours you may have a point. But that's not the true state of affairs, since 1948 Israel has been fighting for its existence. Its been at war, either singularly or together with the armed forces of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq. It has suffered regular suicide bombings in its cities. Its diplomats, athletes and ordinary citizens going about its business have been murdered all over the world. Only a couple of days ago it was the 12th anniversary of a bombing in argentina which killed 85 Jews (and no-one has been brought to justice for that or the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buneos Aires which killed 29).

    Now the Israeli's may be overreacting in this instance, but they've often been the victims too and perhaps given past history there a little bit nervous about rolling over and trusting to the leadership of an organisation who shot and then pushed an elderly, Jewish man overboard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro
    It still doesn't justify bombing and killing civilians on purpose, or terrorising the entire innocent population. Which has been my point all along.

    And let's remember that the Lebanase have themselves been the victims of the most brutal Israel-driven civil war imaginable. Let's remember the Israeli-sponsored death squads that killed tens of thousands and massacred more than 1,000 innocent refugees in a 24 hour period. Let's remember that not too long ago Beirut was a savaged hellhole that made Bosnia look an attractive proposition by comparison. Let's not forget that the Palestinians have consistently had between 3 and 5 times people killed and injured as the Israelis throughout the conflict.

    It certainly goes both ways. And yet, I never ever hear people saying Palestinians or Lebanese have a right to defend themselves, like I always hear when people try to justify unspeakable atrocities commited by the Israelis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For all of you who think that terrorists wouldn't hide weapons amongst civilians, children, schools, high rise flats, you might want to read up a little and use some common sense.

    Secondly, even though Israel is showing NO REGARD FOR A CIVILIAN LIFE with it's bombing raids, condemning just Israel will not solve anything, it will only spur them on and make them feel even more isolated, and what happens when you push a wounded tiger into a corner???

    For those who say that they are boycotting Israel stuff or whatever because they don't want blood on their hands, you live in Western Europe, you have blood on your hands for the things that esp the UK and US governments have done over the years around the world.
    Funny how people have short memory spans.

    Nothing can justify Israel's disregard for a human life at the moment.
    As for Hamas or Hazbollah, they do not have the right to defend themselves, they have a right to be exterminated.
    I just wish the Palestinians and the Lebanese would realize this and kill em off themselves.
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