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whats going on with Israel and Lebanon

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    They are very similar.

    In what ways? Do Hizbollah represent the interests of the Palestinians?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    very brave and shows just how desperate people can get.
    Right then, israeli violence shows how desperate they are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    In what ways? Do Hizbollah represent the interests of the Palestinians?
    No, Hammas don't either though
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Life must be better in Israel for them though... or else they would emigrate to Palestine or anywhere else. They like freedom and demcoracy.

    Life anywhere is better than life in a permanent, puprosely deprivaed and regularly brutalised concentration camp, luke. Many have indeed emigrated and the Zionist intent is that they would all emigrate and leave the land open for total assimilation under Israel control. This is one reason Israel has NEVER declared its official borders and will not until they achieve their ideological aspiration "greater Israel" by force and terror.

    I defy you to examine the standards of "freedom" and "democracy" under which Israeli Arabs (Jew and especially Muslim) are forced to live. Land laws which forbid Muslims from owning any land inside Israel, perpetual social engineering to ensure they remain a minority and marginalised political voice (i.e. with no power to change any policy whatsoever), further social laws which forbid any Israeli Jew from marrying a Muslim (even an Israeli Muslim), etc. This is no "freedom" or "democracy" by any standard you would champion if you truly believe in those terms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Life anywhere is better than life in a permanent, puprosely deprivaed and regularly brutalised concentration camp, luke. Many have indeed emigrated and the Zionist intent is that they would all emigrate and leave the land open for total assimilation under Israel control. This is one reason Israel has NEVER declared its official borders and will not until they achieve their ideological aspiration "greater Israel" by force and terror.

    I defy you to examine the standards of "freedom" and "democracy" under which Israeli Arabs (Jew and especially Muslim) are forced to live. Land laws which forbid Muslims from owning any land inside Israel, perpetual social engineering to ensure they remain a minority and marginalised political voice (i.e. with no power to change any policy whatsoever), further social laws which forbid any Israeli Jew from marrying a Muslim (even an Israeli Muslim), etc. This is no "freedom" or "democracy" by any standard you would champion if you truly believe in those terms.
    Exterem measures like that... then again I can understand why they would do this. If all that was allowed, it maybe seen as muslims 'taking over' Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Obviously nothing will entice you to do more than excuse after excuse for what you clearly do not wish to educate yourself further on. A good starting point has been provided for you, I suggest you take a rest from the ignorant one-liners and read it.

    All the "yes buts" arent doing you any credit at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    No, Hammas don't either though

    Yes that's right, that's why they were elected. You're changing the subject by the way. In what ways is Hamas relevant when discussing Israel and Hizbollah?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Right then, israeli violence shows how desperate they are.
    i think it's a bit different mate.
    an individual who will give his life for his beliefs ...for his sorrow and anger at seeing so much death and destruction ...willing t fight a massive and far superior war machine with all he hasv...his own life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes that's right, that's why they were elected. You're changing the subject by the way. In what ways is Hamas relevant when discussing Israel and Hizbollah?
    We elected a labour government but would you say they have our interests at heart?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think it's a bit different mate.
    an individual who will give his life for his beliefs ...for his sorrow and anger at seeing so much death and destruction ...willing t fight a massive and far superior war machine with all he hasv...his own life.
    Is a nasty piece of work. Will rot in hell.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    We elected a labour government but would you say they have our interests at heart?

    I don't think so, no. However I didn't vote for them. No doubt the people that did think that they do. Anyway, you're avoiding the subject.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Is a nasty piece of work. Will rot in hell.
    ahhh ...your one of those religous extremists!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Both sides understatack, not just he Lebanoneese.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/5179268.stm#startcontent
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I very rarely post on these threads as I don't know enough about it. This has angered me though as I have some very good Lebanese friends.

    And I have some very good Israeli friends. And the barrage of rocket attacks into northern Israel from Lebanese territory - as well as events in Lebanon concern me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm pleasantly surprised to hear you are concerned about events in Lebanon Disillusioned. Any right-thinking person would be very concerned about events in Lebanon.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm pleasantly surprised to hear you are concerned about events in Lebanon Disillusioned. Any right-thinking person would be very concerned about events in Lebanon.

    I'm also concerned about missile attacks against Israel and the fate of the kidnapped soldiers. Israel left Lebanon and Gaza for good reason and it is frustrating to see things going backwards. But those with influence on Hezbollah can defuse the situation, the way forward is simple - an end to Hezbollah missile attacks and the release of the kidnapped soldiers. Israel is being typically heavy-handed, although not out of malice imo but because the unique situation Israel is in where she is surrounded by hostility and people seeking her destruction. The US is mistaken not to put some pressure on Israel to show restraint - but that said Israel is exercising its right to defend itself which I support, however I think there could have been some attempts to engage a third party to try and pursue some kind of negotiations. Tbh I don't think the international community are taking current events seriously enough, that worries me - there may be long lasting political repercussions and Chirac's empty and one-sided condemnation of Israel, vague American expressions of support for Israel and other attempts at pointless UN resolutions isn't really constructive. Perhaps something will come from the G8 but there otherwise needs to be proper negotiations that can produce results. Unfortunately direct negotiation seems unlikely and the situation seems to exist of Lebanon, Iran and Syria having some influence on Hezbollah (but all being unwilling to exercise that influence) and other players in turn having some influence on Iran and Syria. It's a mess.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    luke88 wrote:
    Is a nasty piece of work. Will rot in hell.

    So, if a Foriegn country such as France invaded Britain, and you got fed up... and a few guerillas fought against them, many sacrificing themselves...

    You'd say the same? I doubt it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isn't self defence, this is willful assymetric transnational aggression as Israel has previously perpetrated many times long before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye. That you continue to make all manner of lame excuses for what you readily condemn other nations for doing again outlines the hollowness of any claim you make to respect for the rule of law and for peaceful settlements.

    The reality you refuse to accept - and which will repeat itself throughout your lifetime, despite your intractable will to avoid recognition of it - is that Israel and its Zionist ideologue perpetuators have no intention to "make peace" nor to "negotiate". They never have in any PR-ridden "peace talk" and they will not now nor in the future. They seek absolute subjugation of the indigenous inhabitants of the land and will go to any extent of violence, militant AND economic to advance that aim.

    Given that they have been from the very start the colonialist aggressors against those who previously lived in relative peace (Arab Jew and Arab Muslim alike) even through prior Ottoman and British domination, the only ones with a "right of self defence" are those whom, as we see again clearly now, Israel considers less than human and thus worthy of extermination, women and children alike.

    What they are doing goes so far beyond your feeble criticism of "typical heavy handedness", it is a clear and direct breach of the Nuremberg Principles and every bit as heinous (and according to the very same group superiority ideology dynamic) as what the Nazis did to the Warsaw ghetto.

    That their neighbours consider them the greatest threat to peace and stability in the region is no less a surprise under present circumstances than it has been in decades past all the way back to the terrorist and ethnocidal actions of the state founders.

    Saddam's alleged evils, for which you and others insisted fullscale invasion as necessary, don't even come close in either scope nor duration.

    And don't fool yourself into thinking that Washington, certainly not under neocon control, will ever condemn Israeli atrocities however many innocent civilians they slaughter. You'll find no honest broker there or in any "road map" conceived by them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    So, if a Foriegn country such as France invaded Britain, and you got fed up... and a few guerillas fought against them, many sacrificing themselves...

    You'd say the same? I doubt it.
    Yes I would say the same. If you want to commit suicide do it your self, don't take a load of people with you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isn't self defence, this is willful assymetric transnational aggression as Israel has previously perpetrated many times long before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye. That you continue to make all manner of lame excuses for what you readily condemn other nations for doing again outlines the hollowness of any claim you make to respect for the rule of law and for peaceful settlements.

    The reality you refuse to accept - and which will repeat itself throughout your lifetime, despite your intractable will to avoid recognition of it - is that Israel and its Zionist ideologue perpetuators have no intention to "make peace" nor to "negotiate". They never have in any PR-ridden "peace talk" and they will not now nor in the future. They seek absolute subjugation of the indigenous inhabitants of the land and will go to any extent of violence, militant AND economic to advance that aim.

    Given that they have been from the very start the colonialist aggressors against those who previously lived in relative peace (Arab Jew and Arab Muslim alike) even through prior Ottoman and British domination, the only ones with a "right of self defence" are those whom, as we see again clearly now, Israel considers less than human and thus worthy of extermination, women and children alike.

    What they are doing goes so far beyond your feeble criticism of "typical heavy handedness", it is a clear and direct breach of the Nuremberg Principles and every bit as heinous (and according to the very same group superiority ideology dynamic) as what the Nazis did to the Warsaw ghetto.

    That their neighbours consider them the greatest threat to peace and stability in the region is no less a surprise under present circumstances than it has been in decades past all the way back to the terrorist and ethnocidal actions of the state founders.

    Saddam's alleged evils, for which you and others insisted fullscale invasion as necessary, don't even come close in either scope nor duration.

    And don't fool yourself into thinking that Washington, certainly not under neocon control, will ever condemn Israeli atrocities however many innocent civilians they slaughter. You'll find no honest broker there or in any "road map" conceived by them.
    BTW, do you accept the existance of Israel? You obviously don't accept their right to defend, but you accept the rights of islamists to defned and cause trouble.

    I feel sorry for Lebanon and their people at this time. You have Hezbullah in the south of the country, it's more powerful than the lebanoneese government, well it seems, they are using lebanoneese land to strike against Israel. With the help of Iran and Syria too.

    None of this would of erupted if the islamists did not kidnapp nor shoot rockets down to israel killing innocents and. What does Israel have to do here? It has to relatiate. Who's going to help them through dipolomacy? Iran? lol?? Yeah, it is isolated in the Middle east. It's a soverign demcoracy and it has a right to existist and a right o defend her self.

    What does Hezbollah think they have achieved here? They have achieved their goals thats for sure. they wanted to start a war, israel will give thme a good kicking. Peace process dead in the water - Arab league states. Too right, was dead in the water years ago though - bit slow aren't they? Furthermore, evrytime israel takes steps toward peace, such as withdrawing from lebanon in 2000 and from most of Gaza in 2005, they are targeted even more by palestine, or the Islamists. Ity is very hard to belieev that any of them want peace. Israel has shown it wants peace by withdrawing it's people from gaza.

    If the Islamists wanted peace they would stop this immediately. But they want as their ideology states they do NOT recognise Israel and they never will. It's hard to see peace ever existing in the region. Israel has my full support.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    luke88 wrote:
    Yes I would say the same. If you want to commit suicide do it your self, don't take a load of people with you.

    They don't.

    They have no other way to carry on the fight.

    So if we were illegaly invaded and occupied by the French, and men chose to fight against the occupiers who were persecuting and killing us...

    You would condem this and say that when you are occupied you must sumbit and let the occupiers do what they want and get away with it?

    You have an odd theory of Justice.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    why are you bringing up Hamas in a conversation about Hizbollah?

    Why not? both organisations seek the destruction of Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll admit that I find this an incredibly difficult issue to discuss, mainly because there's so much history involved. I don't fully understand what's going on, I must concede that. Watching the news and reading reports in the broadsheet press, however, I get two distinct impressions.

    The first is the world political one. Our leaders, Bush, Blair and co seem intent on saying nothing about this. Neither has come out and condemned the violence. Neither seems to want to say much about it. These two have proved they don't usually mind interfering in the wars of other countries. So why the quiet?

    The second is the way both sides are reacting. Whenever reporters talk to "the people", i.e. the one group that's affected most by all this, and the one the politicians seem determined to ignore, they talk about just wanting peace. That's understandable enough. Yet both sides seem hellbent on wrecking any chances of that by making things worse and worse, by aggrevating the situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hi
    alloud me to join this discusion, please.
    to be honest, i hven't read all 10 pages, but i will. i promise :angel:

    i have few questions.
    i believe that all of you have heard about our general gotovina, who is in haag now. he is charged to be responsible for death of few hunderds of serbian civilians during the war in croatia. that is a terrible crime of course, and if the court find him guilty, he should stay in prison for the rest of his life..
    my point is who will charge and judge israeli officers who've done exactly the same thing?! as same as the american in iraq?!
    where is the justice, and equality between all nations in the world now.
    if "few balcan tribes" sloughter themslelves it is a war crime, but if israeli soldiers do the same, america is "worried"...
    hm...
    isn't that a cynisism or what...

    and another thing; all the nations of the un has waived of war as the instrument of settling political disputes. this means that the israel breaches the international law, for lebanon and syria are sovereign countries and what israeli are doing now is nothing but the act of aggresion... and the america is still "worried"...
    hm... croatia and slovenia also have some disputes about the exactly position of the border... we have stronger army then them. should we do the same as israeli and conquer that theritory? ius soli...

    => international community and international law exist no more... the law of jungle rules now...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    They don't.

    They have no other way to carry on the fight.

    So if we were illegaly invaded and occupied by the French, and men chose to fight against the occupiers who were persecuting and killing us...

    You would condem this and say that when you are occupied you must sumbit and let the occupiers do what they want and get away with it?

    You have an odd theory of Justice.
    hello?

    I condome suicide bombers in any situation. Period.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    where is the justice, and equality between all nations in the world now.

    there never was any.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    luke88 wrote:
    hello?

    I condome suicide bombers in any situation. Period.

    Condem? Condom? Or ConDome?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Refreshing

    It is refreshing to read such a dynamic debate with folks that actually see what is going on. We here in the US have a miserably biased and anemic press that refuses to show different sides of struggles. If you have half a brain, you need to watch the BBC or seek out information from the Internet to get a complete view of this particular situation. Otherwise, Angelina Jolie's baby, crime and sex scandals are what the "Joe Six Packs" over here are spoon fed. And they sure seem to love it. Pitiful...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    They don't. They have no other way to carry on the fight.
    What does that actually mean? Are you saying that suicide bombing is justified as they might feel they have no other option?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    stargalaxy wrote:
    What does that actually mean? Are you saying that suicide bombing is justified as they might feel they have no other option?

    Not really.

    I am mearly saying that I understand why they do it. I personally would not choose that method, but it is understandable.

    A bunch of guys with AK's and RPG's and a few crude Katyusha missiles don't stand to much chance against an Army armed by the US with a hell of alot of good technology, very new stuff too. And the almighty Merkava.

    If you are going to die anyway... surley a big bomb would do more damage?

    Anyway. Top Gear.
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