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How much more is the life of one of your own worth than the life of a foreigner?

Deaths mount in attacks on Gaza

An Israeli attack on the Gaza City home of an activist for the militant group Hamas has killed nine members of the same family, hospital sources say.
A couple and seven children were killed in the attack. Among the injured was the leader of Hamas's military wing.

At least five other Palestinians have died in attacks as Israeli forces occupied positions in central Gaza.

More than 60 have been killed since militants captured an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid two weeks ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171148.stm


That's not even mentioning the compounding misery and even more desperate situation inflicted on tens of thousands by the implementation of collective punishment, such as destroying the only power generator in Gaza.

I would not want the Israeli soldier killed any more than the Israelis themselves do- but how many dozens, or hundreds, or even more people are seen as worth killing in the eyes of the Israeli government to secure the release of a single one of their own?

How many tens of thousands of people can be left to suffer and starve?

How many more crimes against humanity are we going to tolerate?

For fuck's sake! :mad:
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My own as in my family? Probably lots. My own as in someone from the same country? No more. I don't know either, I have no connection to either, so I feel the same way about both.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just with the UN would do something about it. But as id said before aslong as Israel is being supported by Old Uncle Sam nothings going to happen. Cunts, the both of them. :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not about the comparative worth of life, which is frankly a childish way of viewing the situation. It's about the 3 families who can only start to imagine what's being done to their sons. It's about freeing those boys.
    So yeah, call them cunts are whatever else you like - at the end of the day its all about getting them out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    It's not about the comparative worth of life, which is frankly a childish way of viewing the situation. It's about the 3 families who can only start to imagine what's being done to their sons. It's about freeing those boys.
    I'm willing to bet the families of the 60 Palestinians and the tens of thousands whose lives have been made even more intolerable as a result of collective punishment tactics will disagree with you.
    So yeah, call them cunts are whatever else you like - at the end of the day its all about getting them out.
    So what would be an unacceptable toll in your opinion? If the IDF told you they had decided to start killing 1,000 Palestinians per hour until the soldier was freed, would you think it was a worthy measure if it secures the soldier's release?

    Or do you acknowledge there is such thing as a disproportionate and unjustified response?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    at the end of the day its all about getting them out.

    i think the question is at what cost?.......let's be honest the chances of them being found alive are pretty slim, so until then they'll just keep blowing shit up and inevitably innocent civilians will keep dying.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    It's not about the comparative worth of life, which is frankly a childish way of viewing the situation. It's about the 3 families who can only start to imagine what's being done to their sons. It's about freeing those boys.
    So yeah, call them cunts are whatever else you like - at the end of the day its all about getting them out.

    No matter how many innocent Palestinians are killed along the way? Im just sick of all the stupid crusades Israel goes on and the amount of trouble it causes. After all the persecution the Jews suffered during the Holocaust, something which arguably got them thereown state in the first place, they would be the last to pursecute another group of people. But alas no, and during its existence its had a number of leaders whos sole ambiton was to just increase Israels land and make it an Arab free zone. If any other state in the world had been doing this it would have been massivey condemed by state leaders and governments throughout the world, but as it happens this hasnt happened purely because Israel is seen as a special case for reasons I dont know why. Noone seems to give a damn about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians without a state, without a home living in refugee camps. But yet people are willing to go along with Israel because ONE soldier has been kidnapped. It makes me sick how Israel has justified many of its actions, including this one, over the past half a century. The Israeli government doesnt seem to think the life of a Palestinian is worth anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5172760.stm
    Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, piled on the pressure on a Palestinian population already under economic siege following their election of a Hamas-led government in January.

    He has pummelled Gaza, rounded up Hamas officials - including government ministers, and threatened dire consequences if the young soldier is harmed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171616.stm
    Mr Olmert has said he holds Lebanon responsible for the fate of the two soldiers and that it would pay a "heavy price".

    As per articles 3 and 33 of the Geneva Convention acts of collective punishment and revenge agasint persons and property are illegal and a violation of international law: in other words, war crimes.

    I just can't fucking believe time after time we allow someone to carry out completely unjustified, illegal and entirely disproportionate acts of revenge on entire peoples and countries, and even threaten with more such acts with impunity.

    It's about time the international community got its finger out and put a stop to this atrocity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You think it helps the Palestinian cause that they are harbouring terrorists?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    No matter how many innocent Palestinians are killed along the way? Im just sick of all the stupid crusades Israel goes on and the amount of trouble it causes. After all the persecution the Jews suffered during the Holocaust, something which arguably got them thereown state in the first place, they would be the last to pursecute another group of people. But alas no, and during its existence its had a number of leaders whos sole ambiton was to just increase Israels land and make it an Arab free zone. If any other state in the world had been doing this it would have been massivey condemed by state leaders and governments throughout the world, but as it happens this hasnt happened purely because Israel is seen as a special case for reasons I dont know why. Noone seems to give a damn about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians without a state, without a home living in refugee camps. But yet people are willing to go along with Israel because ONE soldier has been kidnapped. It makes me sick how Israel has justified many of its actions, including this one, over the past half a century. The Israeli government doesnt seem to think the life of a Palestinian is worth anything.

    First of all, one soldier?
    Are you stupid? The whole day has been tainted by the fact that two more have been kidnapped!
    Don't know anything about the soldiers kidnapped this morning, but I think you should keep in mind that at the moment a boy younger than yourself is being held hostage (if he hasn't been killed that is).
    Second of all, your point of view is one that isn't applicable to reality. Very naive to be frank.
    And please do not type lies on the boards, such as Israel wanted to increase it's land and make the country an arab free zone. It's false, and based on imagination rather than reality.

    Point is, Hizbolla and their allies knew exactly what they were doing when they did what they did this morning. It's a direct result of their actions - and I for one am not only shocked by by the actions themselves but also by the reaction which could be seen where sweets were being handed out and people holding flags celebrating the actions of the Hizbolla.

    And when asked at what cost? Almost any.
    Maybe it'd help if other nations viewed humans life the same way, rather than ancouraging their youth to become shahids.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Presumably the UK is also harbouring terrorisits migpilot, seeing as the 7/7 bombers were all British.

    Are you a believer of punishing entire nations for the actions of a few? British people have commited acts of terrorism abroad (in Israel for instance) as well as other crime including rape and murder. Should the population of Britain be punished as a result?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    First of all, one soldier?
    Are you stupid? The whole day has been tainted by the fact that two more have been kidnapped!
    The 60 innocent Palestinians killed in Gaza, the tens of thousands left without power and the hundreds of bombardments and relentless destruction of property have been in direct response to a single soldier kidnapped 2 weeks ago.

    Don't know anything about the soldiers kidnapped this morning, but I think you should keep in mind that at the moment a boy younger than yourself is being held hostage (if he hasn't been killed that is).
    Should we keep in mind that thousands of equally young if not younger Palestinians are being held prisoner without charge in Israeli jails for many months at a time?

    And no, they're not all "terrorists".

    Point is, Hizbolla and their allies knew exactly what they were doing when they did what they did this morning. It's a direct result of their actions - and I for one am not only shocked by by the actions themselves but also by the reaction which could be seen where sweets were being handed out and people holding flags celebrating the actions of the Hizbolla.
    In times of war it is kind of traditional to celebrate any successful operations by your own side, you know? You might see the actions of Hezbollah as terrorism; clearly some Lebanese don't.

    Incidentally Israeli streets are not exactly crawling with protesters against the actions of the IDF.

    And when asked at what cost? Almost any.
    Maybe it'd help if other nations viewed humans life the same way, rather than ancouraging their youth to become shahids.
    Does anyone else see the paradox of the the above comment?

    Part one says practically any cost is acceptable when trying to secure the release of a single person. We do not know the exact figures, but presumably a few hundred Palestinian deaths are okay- why, there have already been 60 and it's no problem.

    And yet part two appears to have a dig at other nations because they don't value life as much as Israel.

    So what does this mean exactly? That Palestinians are not humans?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Presumably the UK is also harbouring terrorisits migpilot, seeing as the 7/7 bombers were all British.

    Are you a believer of punishing entire nations for the actions of a few? British people have commited acts of terrorism abroad (in Israel for instance) as well as other crime including rape and murder. Should the population of Britain be punished as a result?

    I don't like to be technical, but I said Palestinians, not Palestine.
    Some of the UK people are harbouring terrorists presumably, yes, NOT the UK as a whole.

    If you knew me, you wouldn't ask me if I am a believer of punishing entire nations for the actions of a few... But alas, you don't know me. I have first hand experience of a country being punished because of actions of a few. And the punishers were Britons, Italians, Dutch, Americans etc...

    You cannot compare Palestine and UK, and you know that.

    Wherever I lived, if I was harbouring a terrorist i would be foolish not to expect retribution.

    It's always the more powerful side in the conflict that's guilty, and not the guerilla war fighting weaker side. If one of my family was blown up in a bus by a suicide bomber, I wouldn't have time for idealistic reflection but I would join the army and go blow the hell up of anyone who points a gun at me or whatever.

    Until you experience pain like this, I am afraid you will never know what you are really capable as a human being.
    We can all sit here thousands of miles away and philosophise about the whole situation without really knowing the situation.

    How would you feel if you were the father of a suicide bomber who just told you good bye and went on to Israel to blow up some innocent people?
    How would you feel as a border soldier who's just let that suicide bomber through not knowing what he was going to do a little later?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And how would you feel if your country had been illegally occupied by another nation for many decades; if your 7 year old daughter had been shot in the head while going to school; if your house had been demolished by a bulldozer; if your crops had been destroyed by rampaging soldiers; if you didn't have freedom to move in your own nation; if your brother had been taken prisoner for months at a time throughout his youth so any chance of getting a decent education is destroyed; if your father had been blown to pieces by a hellfire missile while walking on the street.

    All of which happen regularly and with far more frequency than your examples, I can assure you.

    As for the harbouring terrorists issue, what exactly are you trying to say? That all Palestinians harbour a terrorist at home?

    Because I don't know if you have noticed but the Israelis don't tend to make much of a discrimination about who they kill, who they bombard and whose electricty they cut off. They are punishing the entire population.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    In times of war it is kind of traditional to celebrate any successful operations by your own side, you know? You might see the actions of Hezbollah as terrorism; clearly some Lebanese don't.

    Incidentally Israeli streets are not exactly crawling with protesters against the actions of the IDF.


    Does anyone else see the paradox of the the above comment?

    Part one says practically any cost is acceptable when trying to secure the release of a single person. We do not know the exact figures, but presumably a few hundred Palestinian deaths are okay- why, there have already been 60 and it's no problem.

    And yet part two appears to have a dig at other nations because they don't value life as much as Israel.

    So what does this mean exactly? That Palestinians are not humans?

    Why are you defending disgusting acts of celebration?
    And if you're going to compare with Israel, then no, I don't recall free sweets being handed out on the streets and people waving the Israeli flag.
    And I actually have witnessed protests and demonstrations against the government :)
    Seriously, you can't compare the two.

    What I was saying was, that importance on human life seems to have a different significance. And no, I am not saying that death of others justifies anything, but I would like to see the IDF doing whatever in their power which will get out the soldiers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    It's not about the comparative worth of life, which is frankly a childish way of viewing the situation. It's about the 3 families who can only start to imagine what's being done to their sons. It's about freeing those boys.
    So yeah, call them cunts are whatever else you like - at the end of the day its all about getting them out.

    ...regardless of how they do it. Hypocrites.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    First of all, one soldier?
    Are you stupid? The whole day has been tainted by the fact that two more have been kidnapped!

    Oh two whole more...how many hundred thousand people are suffering due to Israel is it again?

    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Second of all, your point of view is one that isn't applicable to reality. Very naive to be frank.
    And please do not type lies on the boards, such as Israel wanted to increase it's land and make the country an arab free zone. It's false, and based on imagination rather than reality.

    You say its lies? Ive written essays on the subject and gotten good marks for it. Give me some time and I can find the essays and the sources for my claims. However i very much doubt im going to change an israeli sympathisers view.
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Point is, Hizbolla and their allies knew exactly what they were doing when they did what they did this morning. It's a direct result of their actions - and I for one am not only shocked by by the actions themselves but also by the reaction which could be seen where sweets were being handed out and people holding flags celebrating the actions of the Hizbolla.

    The Israelis also know what they're doing. Yet again using a minor excuse to bring misery to thousands of Palestinians whos lives are miserable enough already. I can see why these people are doing what they are doing. They are doing it because they hate Israel and its inexcuseable actions. Any other state like it would have been acted upon years ago. But Israel is a 'special case' for no apparant reason.
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    And when asked at what cost? Almost any.
    Maybe it'd help if other nations viewed humans life the same way, rather than ancouraging their youth to become shahids.

    So you dont care how many have to die? You monster. Israel has done much much MUCH more damage to the Palestinians. In fact its always done out of proportion responses. A policy first begun my Ben Gurion. Any small attack on Israel was met with a massive out of proportion response.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    Why are you defending disgusting acts of celebration?
    And if you're going to compare with Israel, then no, I don't recall free sweets being handed out on the streets and people waving the Israeli flag.
    And I actually have witnessed protests and demonstrations against the government :)
    Seriously, you can't compare the two.
    Fair enough.
    What I was saying was, that importance on human life seems to have a different significance. And no, I am not saying that death of others justifies anything, but I would like to see the IDF doing whatever in their power which will get out the soldiers.
    Unfortunately, as much as anything else the current operations are more likely to endanger the life of the soldier than to set him free. I don't think relentless bombing is the right way to achieve his release.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What stops the soldier being returned?

    Perhaps the question you could also ask is how many lives of your own are you willing to give up, to be able to imprison another?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Renzo wrote:
    I just with the UN would do something about it. But as id said before aslong as Israel is being supported by Old Uncle Sam nothings going to happen. Cunts, the both of them. :mad:

    True that.

    Fuck this... all I can see this doing is making MORE Muslims support the Iranians for wiping Israel off the map. Which gives the US all the more reason, and Israel too.

    Israel is playing the shrewdest most twisted and hateful game ever. Using the so called "Anti-semetic" attitudes as an excuse for murder.... making more people hate them... so they can have a slightly more legitimate case for that murder.

    Tossers. You think them being persecuted... would have an effect. But no - they turn this persecution and manipulate it for thier own reasons. Sometimes... Lemmy's attitude seems true. All politicians are liars and corrupt bastards.

    Can't someone start a revolution in Israel please?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For the Israelis, there is no too higher a price to pay to rescue their soldier because they are not losing much in the process due to the extensive military force and armoured vehicles they have.

    As for the more general Question, I would make any sacrifice to save some one i loved, no cost is too high. For a stranger, i wouldnt make any sacrifice or effort at all.

    As for the Israel and Palestine situation, is anyone on this board doing anything? I mean, apart from posting, are you boycotting anything from Israel? Are you organising and carrying out protests at the Israeli Embassy? Are you overwhelming the Israeli Embassy and UN and British and American Governments with letters, emails and anything else to show your disgust and demand change? I am not, but i am not personally invested in the situation like others are, but im sure the rest of you who are, will be doing these things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What stops the soldier being returned?
    Perhaps it's the thousands of Palestinians rotting in Israeli jails. And believe me, many of them have done nothing wrong and are released without charge after many months or even several years. The mass "preventive" (lol) jailing of male Palestinian youths is a well known tactic by Israel, and one that is entirely unjustified and destroys the future of thousands of young people.
    Perhaps the question you could also ask is how many lives of your own are you willing to give up, to be able to imprison another?
    I'm kind of dissapointed you asked that. There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the retaliation Israel has embarked on. Regardless of the original kidnapping act, which you might regard as justified or wrong, to terrorise, bombard and kill indiscriminately is unnaceptable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And how would you feel if your country had been illegally occupied by another nation for many decades; if your 7 year old daughter had been shot in the head while going to school; if your house had been demolished by a bulldozer; if your crops had been destroyed by rampaging soldiers; if you didn't have freedom to move in your own nation; if your brother had been taken prisoner for months at a time throughout his youth so any chance of getting a decent education is destroyed; if your father had been blown to pieces by a hellfire missile while walking on the street.

    All of which happen regularly and with far more frequency than your examples, I can assure you.

    As for the harbouring terrorists issue, what exactly are you trying to say? That all Palestinians harbour a terrorist at home?

    Because I don't know if you have noticed but the Israelis don't tend to make much of a discrimination about who they kill, who they bombard and whose electricty they cut off. They are punishing the entire population.

    You are not listening. You are reading the post having already figured out what to reply with...

    Everything you've written, you don't have first hand experience of any of that.

    Frankly, you are just talking out of your ass.
    And that's about this topic, so don't take it personally.
    Cheers
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I met the cousin of the kidnapped soldier Cpl Shalit earlier tonight at a Conservative Friends of Israel meeting...I know my thoughts and hopes are really with his family and Cpl Shalit himself. The terrible kidnapping of more soldiers is not only deeply upsetting but a provocation and it is right and proper that Israel take the necessary response. The thought that these teenagers will not be coming home alive is a horrible one. In the past Israel has even released imprisoned Palestinian terrorists simply to get the dead bodies of kidnapped Israeli soldiers back so they can be buried in Israel. Unfortunately when we consider the kind of terrorists Israel is fighting it is hard to be optimistic about soldiers coming home alive. :( But I hope so much I am wrong.

    These are troubled times for Israel. While it is well established that the bulk of Israelis favour extensive withdrawals from the Disputed Territories and support the creation of a Palestinian state and two states living in peaceful co-existence the Palestinians through the ballot box have rejected peace and embraced terrorism and fear in the form of Hamas. There have been a constant stream of threats from Iran and now Lebanon has directly sought to escalate the situation. Peace and stability, tragically unseen in modern Israel's short history is something Israelis desperately crave; it's so sad that it is not forthcoming. Israel hating extremists may exploit Israel's present hardships but for me my support is firmly behind Israel and the wonderful men and women in the IDF in these tough times.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    israel/palestine is like the fucking duracell bunny

    Peace and stability, tragically unseen in modern Israel's short history is something Israelis desperately crave; it's so sad that it is not forthcoming.

    :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    Ive written essays on the subject and gotten good marks for it. Give me some time and I can find the essays and the sources for my claims. However i very much doubt im going to change an israeli sympathisers view.

    :lol: :rolleyes: Well I'd love to see them. Oh and I too will not change the views of any of the anti-Israel brigade. Since foreign supporters and opponents of Israel cannot even agree on the basics it's unsurprising that Israelis and Arabs cannot agree. (Although that said the few scholarly historians lacking a distinct ideological or political agenda generally always conclude that historically blame lies between a combination of parties, in the historical sense it's absurd to wholly blame one side as you do...)

    Edited.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    trolling misconstrued as arrogance/belittlement
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Angry comments takne back.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry. I didn't make a point and i wasn't judging your marks. I just wanted to see further arguement between you two.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote:
    Sorry. I didn't make a point and i wasn't judging your marks. I just wanted to see further arguement between you two.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. Im still trying to dig my essay out...its around here somewhere. I will definatly do it when i wake up tomorrow morning though. Fo'sho.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5175002.stm

    Now in any other circumstances this would be an act of war against another state....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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