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How on earth can you killed 3,000 civilians, more than 700 of them children, by accident?
'Defend themselves'?
I'd hardly call illegally occupying another country for four decades and subjecting its people to a catalogue of atrocities and appalling abuses self-defence to be frank. Perhaps they should try returning the nicked land and see if that has an effect.
The Israelis know full well that's the one and only measure that will bring peace to the region. But they clearly see the violence and deaths as an acceptable price to pay to hang on to the large chunks of Palestinian land they insist on occupying.
The single most imporant aspect of the conflict remains unspoken. Both sides needs to make concessions (right of refugees, the administration of Jerusalem etc) but for as long as Israel refuses to return to 1967 borders there will never be peace. Ever.
Israel should thus agree to withdraw in full in return for a stop to violence etc etc, but the problem remains it has never once proposed to do so.
Its kinda of irrelevant whether they are direct descendants of ancient Biblical Jews or not. Its not one horrible atrocity, but a series of them. For example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/britain/mid_eng_jews.shtml
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Crusade,_1096
So if one has any grasp of historical context you can see why Jews feel a little bit nervous. You cannot grasp the Palestinian/Israel problem until you understand why they feel that way. And to be honest claims that Jewish persecution is a historic myth seems to be slightly innaccurate
* as an interesting aside rabid Spanish nationalists actually have a legal case for Britain breaking the treaty of Utrecht as Spain put in the treaty the following clause - 'Her Britannic Majesty, at the request of the Catholic King, does consent and agree that no leave shall be given, under any pretext whatsoever, either to Jews or Moors to reside or have their dwellings in the said town of Gibraltar'
That myth and those at the top of the movement (Herzl, Weizmann, etc.) who were most calculatingly colonialistic in their agenda and political maneuvering used and conflated these periodic incidents into a platform applied as much against contented, integrationist Jews throughout Europe as they did against any gentiles (goyim) who challenged their particularist political ambitions.
Until YOU recognise that reality, its you and those who similarly swallow the Zionist movement's self-excusatory PR, who will fail to comrepehend the roots of this conflict and the intent that has prolonged it through systematic institutionalised oppression, bigotry, dehumanisation, ethnocide and significant misinformation to the present day.
That average everyday Jews have suffered greatly is all the more an indictment against those at the forefront of the ideological movement for their perpetration of similar brutality and suffering upon those they have always deemed to be subhuman (much in common with the mindset evinced by at least two well known particularist group ideologies in the past century).
Its not deliberate policy. I'm sure individual IDF men have deliberately murdered civilians. Of the others some were fighting the IDF (unless you're a member of a properly constituted military formation you are a civilian), others were knocked over by tanks, shot by Palestinians when trying to attack Israeli's, shot by stray rounds (bear in mind your average high velocity bullet will easily puncture most walls and still have enough velocity to kill).
I'm not defending the IDF's response which is overly robust - but then I'm not saying there 100% to blame either.
Do you know why they're doing it? Its not for fun - especially given that there's been an enormous amount of blood and treasure expended by israel in doing so, for fuck all economic, political or social gain. They do it because they fear their enighbours. Hamas does not recognise Israel right to exist and given that since 1948 (3 years after the worst holocaust Jews had eve seen) surrounding states have been trying to destroy them you can see why Israel is disclined to take a chance on withdrawing from what is a military useful buffer zone and allowing Palestinian militants a free reign to get into Israel proper.
I absolutely agree that both sides need to make concessions. But what comes first the chicken or the egg? What you've got is Israel's fear of a hostile state with easy access to its borders as the chicken and the Palestinians being occupied as the egg. Its easy to say that Israel should withdraw and then evrything becomes hunky dorry. But what if you''re wrong? Israel's leaders do not have the luxury of taking the moral high ground and hoping.
Now that said I think they're may be some slight grounds for optimisim
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5027248.stm with Mahmoud Abbas talking about calling a referendum about whether to recognise Israel. Now its risky, because if the Palestinians say 'no' Abbas is rather stuck with the status quo. if they say 'yes' however, its a major blow to Hamas and the other militant groups and allows the start of the confidence building measures to encourage Israel to go back to its own borders.
And I said its irrelavnt whether they're biblical Jews or not. The fact is that Jews have been persecuted and those who were doing it were not worried about their genelogical purity.
The sanitised mass media soundbite history and analysis requires far less intellectual effort, I realise.
The continuing occupation of large chunks of the West Bank only owns to one thing: to the desire to expend and to grab as much land as possible. I'm sure you're aware of such mentality: many if not most nations have displayed throughout history.
If the West Bank was really occupied for security reasons or as a buffer zone, there wouldn't have plagued it with hundreds of settlements. The occupation owns to a zionist Greater Israel mentality. Nothing more, nothing less. And more to the point, it is wrong at every single level. And it must be stopped if peace is ever to be achieved.
Oh, it doesnt. In fact occupying these areas is in fact a massive drain on the Israeli economy.
Washington has long ensured that Israel's continued militancy pays off quite handsomely for them, Mat, if you ever read more than comic books and beer labels.
Read and learn...
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
Well perhaps if you actually explained the relevance to what the conflict has to do with whether or not the current Jews are direct descendants of Biblical Jews I might not scratching my head.
Well historically occupation has been for sveral reasons, economics, colonisation or security.
Economically it doesn't seem to be a reason. As Mat points out its a drain on Israel - not just in direct costs, but in loss of tourist income, damage from people boycotting Israel etc. Whilst Israel gets funding from the US its not as a quid pro quo for occupying parts of Palestine.
Colonies is another and whilst there may be some minor evidence for this at the periphery its more than counterbalnced by Israel dismantling settlements (despite some domestic political opposition).
That leaves security - and that's my point all along. Israel isn't there for fun, but for the good of its health.
You all know you are totally in the right and nothing is going to change.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4188216.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4804666.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527916.stm
Let's not kid each other about this shall we? There are 250,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank- and that's not counting the 200,000 living in East Jerusalem, which Israel decided it fancied for itself. The overall number of settlements, rather than being reduced or even frozen, it's actually rising.
That is the one and overriding problem in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And until those settlements are removed and the land given back to the Palestinians, there will never be peace. Ever.
http://www.doublestandards.org/shockwave/barak_eng.html
It appears that the "new" Israeli PM has similar plans afoot:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,,1797395,00.html
And people wonder why the Palestinians "don't want" peace...
Because we like to argue.
The UN debates the same old wank and makes the same old wank conclusions and statements afterwards. We're just doing the same.
as well as criminal.
Funny how the houses in the settlments often sport finely manicured lawns, while a few hundred yards away many Palestinians don't even have running water.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5122822.stm
How do you expect the Israelis to negitiate with people whose demands are impossible to acquiesce to?
I'm sorry, but have you seen the land you're talking about?
There's a reason that Israel is leading in the field of agriculture, and it's not from the land being fertile in the first place.
Not really.
A thriving city as Tel-Aviv was developed out of of 6 sand dunes.
Mark Twain when describing the then Palestine couldn't understand how the same place described so vividly in the bible could be so lifeless when he visited.
One of the biggest charities in Israel, is one for planting trees. Especially in Jewish communities, it is a common thing to have trees in Israel planted in your name whenever having great celebrations or deaths. The state of the land now, which isn't good compared to here for example, has taken a lot of work and isn't a natural occurence which has always existed.
This will end in bloodshed. Mark my words...
Innocent lives, more, will be lost. People will be angry their loved ones are dead... the international community won't act against Israel... but htey will want vengance! What to do... but take up the fight yourself.
Those Israeli military planners are idiots. Let's combat terrorism with an invasion. Yeah... it sure worked revery other time, like Vietnam! Sure working in IRaq and Afghanistan too!
No one is happy about what's happening at the moment.
But then again, I wouldn't wanna be the family of the boy who's been kidnapped and truly hope for them that the military intervention will bring him back alive.
I can't imagine what it must be like, knowing that the kidnappers could do whatever they want with him at the moment in the most brutal of ways.
But tbh, I think it is stupid. They could have traded him for a Palestinian prisoner. If they send in the Army, let's face it, they'll likley execute him for what the Israeli's did.
Negotiation would probably have been the best option to be fair. If they do execute him for this, may it hang over the head of the Politicians.
I also hope he comes out alive... it isn't the fault of the soldiers, but their leaders.