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Tories: We'll build more prisons

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    my american friends see our tories as left wing ...cos they have continued to support health care paid for by taxes ...until recently of course.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    J wrote:
    I don't see locking someone up as a punishment or rehabilitation. Make them join a seperate regiment of the army and do some work to put something back into society. Teach them something about life. Give them a blank sheet. Mould them.

    Good post overall J. Its a shame society doesn't work like this... that bit was quite good I feel... Punishments should either be that - a punishment - or rehabilitation.

    The Soviets tried one extreme of the approach - Punishment as a proper punishment and using the prisoners as workers towards the good of the other people. However, this to a large extent is known not to work now (although still far more effective as a detterant than the western system) - it is also largely cruel.

    We should work towards identifying the causes of crime - poverty, overpricing, low standards of living maybe - and popular culture that seems to glorify criminals and their acts, and solving these - for those persistent offenders, maybe a Gulag style system (Not the Stalinist model, which was just slaughter, more a late model approach - this worked better and even Westerners are willnig to admit it - many who were jailed in the USSR for various crimes said it was an actual punishment and put them off going back, which they hadn't had before.) for persistent offenders - why should they do nothing? Criminals should at least be made to work, its wasteful otherwise. They should contribute something back to the society they have wronged.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i keep saying this but i'll say it again ...the british prison system is already a huge industrial complex ...from farming to textiles to engineering and more.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Meanwhile we need to create a separate charge of first degree murder - for which the guilty should be executed.
    Music to my ears. In this thread, I've talked about prison being the best place for criminals, simply for the logical reason they can't commit more crimes whilst in there. But quite frankly, there are some crimes so heinous that they should be punishable by execution. Sadly, in a political climate dominated by soggy liberals, and on a P&D board dominated by lefties, this suggestion will prove unpopular.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The death sentence is a barbaric and horrific punishment unfit for a civilised society.

    I honestly can't believe anyone who see themselves as fair and decent being could possibly condone the murdering of a human being- no matter how horrific their crimes.

    Why do we fight dictators and butchers? If we advocate the death penatly we're not better them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The death sentence is a barbaric and horrific punishment unfit for a civilised society. I honestly can't believe anyone who see themselves as fair and decent being could possibly condone the murdering of a human being- no matter how horrific their crimes.
    Talking to my work mates recently, I've gathered they aren't natural supporters of the death penalty. And believe it or not, neither am I. But frankly, they've so little confidence in the justice system, so little confidence that criminals will be punished, murderers locked up, fearing that paedophiles will be released within five years, that they don't know what else to propose. Surely you can understand such desperation and despair?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Why do we fight dictators and butchers? If we advocate the death penatly we're not better them.

    Rubbish. Are Japan and the United States equivalent to butchering dictators like er Hitler, Stalin and Castro? I don't think so. The use of the death penalty does not automatically translate into the mass executions and show trials witnessed under the likes of Stalin and Castro in totalitarian regimes. In a liberal democracy if somebody receives a fair and legitimate trial and is then found guilty, proven beyond all reasonable doubt of murder executing the person in question is not in itself equivalent to being no better than dictators and butchers. (And I'm sure many refugees fleeing 'dictators and butchers' over the years who have found refuge in the US would take offence to the implication that the US, a country which uses the death penalty is 'no better' than the regimes they escaped).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    (And I'm sure many refugees fleeing 'dictators and butchers' over the years who have found refuge in the US would take offence to the implication that the US, a country which uses the death penalty is 'no better' than the regimes they escaped).
    Yes, but it's far easier for liberals to try and do down the USA for all the good it's done, and to be blinded by his hatred of the Bush administration. (and no, I don't like the Bush administration myself)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Then again butchers and dictators at least have the 'decency' of not lecturing and patronising the whole world about justice, fairness and human rights. Unlike one of the most prolific executioner nations in history...

    But not wishing to divert from the point in hand, suffice to say that IMVHO anyone who supports the death penalty is a barbarian and about as civilised as Attila the Fucking Hun.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    But not wishing to divert from the point in hand, suffice to say that IMVHO anyone who supports the death penalty is a barbarian and about as civilised as Attila the Fucking Hun.
    Aside from the fact that Attila The Fucking Hun sounds like a bad porn movie, God knows how many people you've just insulted. Could be anywhere from thousands to many millions of British citizens, depending on when a poll was taken. :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, I'll happily say to their faces as well. Anyone who supports the death penalty is not a whole lot better than the person who's being executed.

    Nobody has the right to take another person's life. Even if said person had done just that.

    I think it's fucking disgusting and sickening to be honest. I'd fucking make every death pentaly advocate to be an executioner for a day- see if it changes their not-too-pleasant minds.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I think it's fucking disgusting and sickening to be honest. I'd fucking make every death pentaly advocate to be an executioner for a day- see if it changes their not-too-pleasant minds.
    It's all very well and good to protest about death penalty advocates. So, what alternatives are there? How do we deal with dangerous criminals? Lock them up for longer?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah why not? I'm not against life without parole for some crimes. Not only it is infinitely preferable from a moral point of view, it ends up being cheaper in the long run and probably a better deterrent. Knowing that you will have to spend the rest of your natural life, which could be 50 years plus, in jail might be seen by many as a fate worse than death.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    might be seen by many as a fate worse than death.
    exactly,
    thats why shipman took his own life ...why huntley tried and failed ...they would rather be dead than alive in a box.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    exactly,
    thats why shipman took his own life ...why huntley tried and failed ...they would rather be dead than alive in a box.
    Agreed. Nobody seems to know with Shipman, though. Some claim that was one reason, another say it was to make sure his wife was well-looked after in future years. It was so long ago now I can't remember it all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Agreed. Nobody seems to know with Shipman, though. Some claim that was one reason, another say it was to make sure his wife was well-looked after in future years. It was so long ago now I can't remember it all.
    there was an issue with shipmans timing.
    it meant his wife would get his generous pension but if he'd lived a little longer she wouldn't.
    such a thoughtful man!

    but ...believe me ...jail is bleak.
    imagine the next forty years of your life consisting of the same bleak routine ...interupted occasionaly by other prisoners attempting to torture you ...rape ...kill you.
    the same daily routine of nothingness. a life without hope or adventure ...a life without colour or sky or sunshine ...and then the ones in uniform who hate your guts.
    keep the bastards alive ...forever if possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sensible policy. Prisons are over crowding... build more. Common sense. Well done!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Sensible policy. Prisons are over crowding... build more. Common sense. Well done!
    so why does this country lock up so many of its own population ...is it cos the great british people of who you seem so proud ...are just a mass of scum?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so why does this country lock up so many of its own population ...is it cos the great british people of who you seem so proud ...are just a mass of scum?

    I'd like to think locking people up has a lot to do with protecting law abiding members of the public and providing an situation in which criminals can be rehabilitated, though i'm not sure much of the latter goes on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd like to think locking people up has a lot to do with protect law abiding members of the public and providing an situation in which criminals can be rehabilitated, though i'm not sure much of the latter goes on.
    but why does this country have to lock so many up?
    as for rehab ...it is in very short supply as it would cost an arm and a leg ...but we can afford wars and 25 billion quid for new bullets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    Sensible policy. Prisons are over crowding... build more. Common sense. Well done!
    Shit policy. Prisons are overcrowding for the wrong reasons. Change the law. Much to do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but why does this country have to lock so many up?
    as for rehab ...it is in very short supply as it would cost an arm and a leg ...but we can afford wars and 25 billion quid for new bullets.

    Again, for protection and rehabilitation ideally.

    Still, i won't argue with you that there's plenty of money elsewhere which really should be reappropriated.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Again, for protection and rehabilitation ideally.

    .
    so why aren't the rest of europe having to lock up so many people ...are the brits realy that mad and dangerous?
    do people who watch telly without a permit pose some kind of threat to us that do>
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so why aren't the rest of europe having to lock up so many people ...are the brits realy that mad and dangerous?
    do people who watch telly without a permit pose some kind of threat to us that do>

    I'm not sure. Perhaps they have different crime rates to us or maybe they are more lenient in their sentencing. They may also be better at rehabilitating ex-cons, which keeps the reoffending rate down.

    I sense you your probably thinking deeper about this than i am. You're picking on T.V. licencing as an example, but given that you have to pay for the BBC, how else would you propose to deal with people who ultimately refuse to pay?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I sense you your probably thinking deeper about this than i am. You're picking on T.V. licencing as an example, but given that you have to pay for the BBC, how else would you propose to deal with people who ultimately refuse to pay?
    the money owed for tv or council tax could simply be taken at source ...from wages or benefits.
    surely throwing people into jail for such things is a waste of time and money and bloody cruel as well.
    time away from children and work ...people who go to jail often loose their homes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the money owed for tv or council tax could simply be taken at source ...from wages or benefits.
    surely throwing people into jail for such things is a waste of time and money and bloody cruel as well.
    time away from children and work ...people who go to jail often loose their homes.

    I don't disagree with you. I was genuinely asking for your thoughts on better solutions, which you provided :D.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so why does this country lock up so many of its own population ...is it cos the great british people of who you seem so proud ...are just a mass of scum?
    10,000 of them are foreign, throw them out, then we have 10,000 free places for all them paedophiles and the like.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Shit policy. Prisons are overcrowding for the wrong reasons. Change the law. Much to do.
    Many are taken to prison for the wrong reason such as not paying for council tax but many many are not put in prison too... like paedophiles and rapists, or they're given a small sentence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    luke88 wrote:
    10,000 of them are foreign, throw them out, then we have 10,000 free places for all them paedophiles and the like.

    I can see you are not a racist indeed... everyone was wrong about you...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can see you are not a racist indeed... everyone was wrong about you...
    here we go again, where is the racism... come on own up???
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