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Role of Government..

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>Thantos, just an observation, but as a serving Marine, who provides for you?

    Throughout your military career I assume that you have NEVER taken advantage of the subsidised food on base, I assume that you have never eaten a MRE, nor have you ever visited the on base physician. I presume that you have never lived in barracks, but rather built your own accomodation.

    Of course, I could be wrong.</STRONG>


    Of course not, he goes into the forests and cuts trees down to make his camp fire. He then roasts live deer combined with a fabulous "swamp" stew.

    Thanatos, words cannot describe how pompous, and arrogant you really are. You are telling me that when death is staring you in the face, that you won't do everything in your power to cling on to life? If that's the case then you really aren't human.
    The only reason my attitude "disgusts" you is because you come from a completely different society. Your country wasn't devestated by war in the 1940's, so your government didn't see the need to provide for it's people.
    The whole reason the welfare state was introduced was to take care of recently demobbed soldiers. Every single welfare reform since the 1900's has been to appease the people. Because the government, quite rightly so was afraid that demobbed soldiers and their families could overturn the government quite easily if they wanted to.

    Can I ask, who paid for your education? Or are you not educated? Who paid for your children to go to school? Who pays for the roads, the police, the ambulance that will come and pick you up after a car wreck?
    Because despite everything you say, these are things that are necessary in a civilised society. And who paid for them? The government. In case you don't realise, we pay for our "free" healthcare, we pay for our education, through taxes that are vastly inflated compared to yours. You have a better standard of life because you pay less. In return you get less. If we all said "no more taxes" the government would turn round and say "no more schools, no more hospitals."

    But of course you don't realise that because you are far more interested in trying to make me out to be a sheep than you are in trying to make a point. I disgust you because you think you've had a tough life, you think you've had it so much harder than everyone else. WAKE UP AND GET A FUCKING CLUE. You are not hard done to at all, you are simply a whining old man, who's only escape from your inevitable death is to try and justify why you think you are better than us. You are not. Nobody gives a crap if your much loved government conscripted you into fighting a pointless war. Nobody gives a crap if you think you can survive without free health care. And nobody gives a crap if you aren't scared of death.

    I suggest you fuck off and come back when you can actually make a point instead of insulting me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanatos, I warned you about poking sheep with a pointed stick...that is not bleating you hear. ROTFLMAO <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">

    It is simply the duty of the people to be the government...and not expect appointees over themselves to govern in 'their' best interest.

    The best government is indeed one that fears the people and not the other way around.

    From our, US, point of view the folks in UK have just been pieced off by the powers that be and will be kept that way...equal way down there!

    Diesel

    88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="tongue.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>Thanatos, I warned you about poking sheep with a pointed stick...that is not bleating you hear. ROTFLMAO <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

    Heard the speculation elsewhere that what I refer to as "bleating" is actually their apoplectic stutterings... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>Thantos, just an observation, but as a serving Marine, who provides for you?

    Throughout your military career I assume that you have NEVER taken advantage of the subsidised food on base, I assume that you have never eaten a MRE, nor have you ever visited the on base physician. I presume that you have never lived in barracks, but rather built your own accomodation.

    Of course, I could be wrong.</STRONG>

    As stated previously, there ARE essential services, but the welfare society has leaped the boundaries of reason, and the parasites which it supports are strangling the system which supports it.
    For an attempt at "good manners", I shall refrain from calling "whowhere" a sheep from now on, and simply call it what it is... a parasite. That status is what it aspires to, so I shall call it what it desires to be...

    There ARE needs of the general public, and those who fill those needs SHOULD be supported by public funds... I have never denied that. My son was refered to as a buffoon (within this forum) because he is paid so little for his efforts within the USMC; I hardly think that he is "over-paid".

    There are massive numbers of parasites which government supports and suckles that are NOT necessary, nor essential. Parasites deem them essential for their survival, but the parasites are NOT essential to the health nor survival of the nation.

    Never stated that I had it "rough"; my forebears who went through the Great Depression of the 30's had it "rough". I simply did what was necessary for survival, and I do not "glory" in my accomplishments, because they were (for the most part) only what was necessary for that survival. I am disgusted by the leeches and parasites who feel that the "government" "owes" them the lifestyle they deem themselves "entitled" to.

    HUGE disparity, BUT, incomprehensible to an invertibrate whose existence as a parasite is dependent upon the largese of those who have NOT been too lazy nor self-possessed to earn their own way.

    So what that more than half a century past your nation suffered from war? At more or less the same era in history, mine survived a depression that COMPLETELY wiped out the wealth of my family. Does that mean I whine and snivle and expect Big Brother to suckle me forever? <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

    I have lost my own EARNED wealth to circumstances beyond my control. Does that mean I whine and snivel and expect to be supported?

    I stood on my own two feet, and worked my way out of homelessness and poverty, WITHOUT aid from anyone. That was not "rough"... that is simply what is expected of a MAN, which is beyond your wildest aspirations.

    Having ALREADY faced death, NUMEROUS times, I did my DUTY. THAT is the difference between men and worms. Having been abandoned to die on multiple occaisions, I did what was NECESSARY, and I survived because of my own will. What you refer to as "arrogance" is simply the perspective of one who slithers on their belly. I stand ABOVE you not because of any great stature of myself, but because of the LACK of stature within yourself.

    When I face the inevitable death again, I shall AGAIN comport myself as a man, not a whining and sniveling worm. That does not make me "extra-human", but rather, it DOES prove me a MAN.

    Guess I should not expect DIGNITY from a worm, it is beyond their comprehensive mediocrity... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere:
    <STRONG>

    I suggest you fuck off and come back when you can actually make a point instead of insulting me.</STRONG>

    Your own life is the greatest insult that could be made concerning you. Nothing I might say could compare... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why is it that you guys feel the need to turn every discussion in this forum in to a slanging match?

    Thanatos. For the sake of argument, will you state your thoughts on what the role of government should be? I am actually interested to hear them.

    Whowhere - ditto to you.

    Let us all take a breath, and lose the animosity.

    Thanatos. What you need to accept is that you have certain skills. Other people have other skills. A government is a good way of mediating an fixed exchange value for your skills against someone else's. As someone who ran a business, you will understand economic theory in that sense. A government employs the teachers that provide the education for your children - because it would be too expensive for you to buy your own teachers. A government pays for the Armed Services, who lay their lives on the line for their country. And each person willing to use their own skills contributes to that, via tax.

    Government has become overly bureactratised, on that we all agree, I think. But a laissez faire government attitude was one of the contributing factors to the depressions of the 30s that you referred to. One cannot have hyperinflation, nor depression without some kind of Federal Reserve (govt.) intervention?

    Just my thoughts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanatos, if you are claiming that, throught your life and struggle, you never accepted a helping hand then you are a liar.

    Once again you show the US trait which forgets that there is a world beyond your borders. The depression you talk about was a worldwide phenomena, and affected the UK too but I forget that we are just sheep who expect the Govt to bail us out...

    Except if you read this thread you'll see that none of us has suggested such a thing. We expect to pay taxes so that there are such things as an education system, armed force, police force, fire brigade and health service. What we say is that we are happy to pay in to a central fund for the better of the society we live in.

    You talk about look after yourself, making sure that you have the food and housing you need. So on that basis you would support illegal activty such a drug dealing, prostitution and bank robbing then. People who are doing what it takes to get the money they 'need' to survive...

    But that wasn't what this thread was really about, what I was asking was - How far should govt be involved in your day to day life? What should they legislate on, what should they keep their noses out of?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DJP:
    <STRONG>Why is it that you guys feel the need to turn every discussion in this forum in to a slanging match?

    Let us all take a breath, and lose the animosity.

    </STRONG>
    AND the worm, parasitic, other invertebrate, ovine, porcine, bovine,..., et al., references.

    The eloquent use of personal insults has been taken to a new level. *ponders*

    I think it's clear now who respects whom, as if we needed to guess anyway. Let's move on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The best government is the least government...!

    In the US the Federal Reserve is a private banking swindel which is not 'federal' at all...the intricate details are awsome but no place on this site for such a subject.

    It's just about taking worthless paper and pretending that it is worth something...untill folks realize that it really is worthless.

    Diesel

    88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But getting back on topic...

    I think most government intervention is intended to be beneficial. I refuse to believe that a government goes out of its way to make things difficult for us. Legislation is there to help in one way or another. It may seem irrelevant to us at the time, but most rules and regs have long-term benefits. I'm trying to think of a good example.... I suppose the minimum wage was controversial, as was the national curriculum, health and safety law, emissions tests for car exhausts etc.

    HOWEVER, there is a danger with all this red-tape and regualtion. The danger is that we all go through the motions without really addressing the problem that the legislation was set-up to sort out.

    For example, anti-bullying policies in schools which are written because they have to be, and not because the Head sees a problem and seeks to address it.

    Also, and MoK you may well have experience of this, hospitals can apply for an HQS (formally King's Fund) accreditation. Basically it involves the hospital having a policy for this that and the other; then inspectors come in and quiz the staff over the procedures. It's all very dull. But the point is, hospital management write these policies often without seeing the need. i.e. Regulation for regulation's sake.

    The same is often true of health and safety rules. (Although these are often taken more seriously because of insurance implications).

    So really, my views are mixed. Regulation is all very well, but only if there is actually a need. And if those writing and following these procedures actually accept the need themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why doesn't someone just come out and say it. Social democratic government has its own advantages and disadvantages as does laissez faire government. Basically it's the we over the I or the I over the we.
    I am not going to be like some of my countrymen and be so naive as to believe that our way of life and government offers so much more than the British system. I think the fact that the benefits baseline for the average citizen in England is higher than the United States is an indication that isn't true.
    However, it comes down to what you want more, greater individual freedom or greater group welfare.
    Higher tax rates, as are required for higher social welfare, mean that businesses will not push as hard to try to lead the pack because it means greater risk with less possible reward. Why is the U.S. the economic giant it is today? Because when Europe was burdened by high taxes in the beginning of the century (mostly for military expenditures, but taxes are taxes) the U.S. had comparitively negligible tax rates. Growth requires this. Look at the success of the Asian countries that used this idea.
    At one point we needed government to take care of us, to provide those things that the society and the economy couldn't provide the opportunity for most to get. That is becoming less true every day. Most bright people go to college these days, not just the ones with money. If you have the right preparation and motivation, and a few breaks, you can succeed. I find it annoying for the government to take large proportions of my property to spend it less effectively and more wastefully than I could myself. I think it is condescending for the government to assume that I can't provide for myself without their assistance. I believe that I should have much, but not all, of my property, no matter how much or little it is, to invest or save as I want.
    I get the feeling that some of you think that the people who believe this are from advantaged backgrounds and are somehow indifferent to the problems of those at the bottom. I can tell you that I make nothing and I'm much closer to the bottom than to the middle and I still feel the same way event though I have much more to gain from a more socialist government than most people in the U.S.
    The other problem I have with big government is that it caters to the will of the majority, and the track record of the wisdom of the majority is horrible. The majority has been very prone to trampling on the minorities in the name of the "greater good". Germany in the 30's and 40's, the U.S. towards Japanese-Americans during WW2 and toward the black population in general, South Africa and apartheid, etc...
    Legislation is created by the majority. The more legislation there is, the more the interests of the majority are served.
    I can still appreciate the advantages that big government offers. I just choose more uncertainty over less freedom.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Our country has suffered a lot more than the US over the centuries. We have suffered numerous invasions, most of which were repulsed. The Spanish Armada, Napolean, The Nazis.
    Even the Falklands, although a pointless war we showed that we can triumph.

    You think you have it good because the USA has never truly been in danger of destruction. You are too far away from anything to let it concern you. And any possible threat you simply laugh about.

    I am not a parasite, parasites don't pay tax and national insurance for the services I ask for in return. I am at university, and when I finish I hope to pursue a career either in the plice force or the RAF.
    What's that I hear you say? He wants to be a man?!?!
    I want to join the forces and serve my country, either at home or abroad. I want to know that I am doing something to keep our country on top.

    As for the role of government, I have stated numerous times what I expect. I expect any tax I do pay to be well spent. I expect those taxes (which are vastly inflated compared to yours) to pay for my healthcare, to pay for my education. I expect subsidised medecines because I and my family have paid for them.
    At some point Thanatos, EVERY person in the UK will contribute to the economy through taxes at some point in their lives. We all contribute at some point. And because we contribute we expect something in return. In the USA you contribute very little, so you expect to pay very little.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    And Sean, if you really think we are so stupid that we think the government plucks its money off trees in order to treat us to free healthcare then you underestimate our intelligence. Of course we know there is no such thing as a free lunch. We pay for the NHS, we pay for the schools, we pay for disability benefit. And most of us accept the responsibility graciously.</STRONG>

    Then it might be worthwhile for someone to state that instead of claiming something was free. On the other hand, I have watched many a British tourist visit a hospital in SE Asia and state "Why can't these people (or various not so nice comments) have free healthcare?" and really mean it...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here is an article in the Sierra Times by a JPFO writer that covers the bases on much of this discussion. It is a worthwile read and not 'propaganda' unless you view all information as such.

    Enjoy;
    http://www.sierratimes.com/02/01/28/edcw012802.htm

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    4. Watch for biased language.

    Biased language comes in many flavors. Gun owners may be most familiar with the kind that's used against us (like the politically concocted term "assault weapon," or "gun violence," which makes it sound as if Glocks and Rugers are prowling the streets on their own, stalking victims). But examine the language of any news article. Look for terms designed to evoke automatic agreement or automatic distaste, rather than convey information: "sensible," "common-sense," "Frankenfoods," "mean-spirited," "slash," "moms," "urgent," "needy," "reasonable," "for the children," "sacred," "greedy," "homeland" -- the list is endless.

    And we should also add to that list words like "rights," "freedom," "liberty," "unalienable," "self-evident," and so on. To see just how programmed people are to agree with these emotional 'push-buttons,' as I call them, witness the outraged reactions of posters on these boards when I dared to ask 'Why is self-defence' a human right?' or, more generally, to demand a justification of the existence of 'unalienable rights.'
    8. Don't accept dehumanizing of opponents.

    Nota bene those who persistently dehumanize their opponents on this board. <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">

    Incidentally, the use of the phrase "self-evident" can be a dehumanizing tactic, by the following logical syllogism: X is self-evident to all human beings, you deny (or question the truth of) X, therefore, you are not truly human. A typical X is 'unalienable rights.'
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