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Human rights is merely a PR device in Washington's vocabulary, Toad. Direct acts of torture, extraordinary renditions and a long history of association with and funding/arming of brutal regimes and murderous death squads to advance foreign policy (i.e. Corporate hegemonic) aims is a rolling testament to that fact.
Time to turn the spotlight on the most wanton criminals and liars with the most extensive global roster of crimes against humanity, abuse of power and contravention of legitimate democratic principle whereever and whenever it refused to serve OUR profiteering agenda.
A crash course in the true meanings behind the scripted rhetoric of our leaders and pundits (aka doublespeak) would do many on this forum a world of good.
Wrong. As has already been pointed out to you time and again (yet unsurprisingly unable to penetrate your extremist ideologue skull) the US and most other western powers support the status quo of mere rhetorical platitudes whilst refusing to hold the key antagonist, progenitor and ongoing perpetuator of the conflict (Israel) to full account.
That Israel has long since incorporated its terrorist groups into the framework of the state (in terms of political normalisation, Haganah=Labour Party, Irgun=Likud, elements of the Stern Gang=founding elements of the IDF) with successive former terrorist like Begin, Dayan, and Shamir having become its hallowed statesmen, makes it no less the very model of what you assert constantly toward the Paelstinians.
Your oft regurgitated "road map" is dead and recognised as so by many non-ideologically driven analysts (whom you ignore in favour of anti-democratic McCarthyites and bigots like Pipes and Dershowitz in your unabated youthful gullibility). Sharon's "facts on the ground" with his wall and continued expansionism into the West Bank coupled with the documented repeated refusals to negotiate on any grounds save those dictated solely by Israel was the recognised death knell of that supposed peace plan.
Considering that this Bush admin and its cadre of Israel-serving policy scriptwriters like Feith, Frum, Perle, et al. has done no more than make apology for their Israeli counterparts substantiate the truth of Washington's complete disregard for any legitimate and just solution to the conflict.
THe longer you continue to delude yourself by adhering to the excuses of those profitting most by its perpetuation, the longer you will watch it continue through your lifetime until perhaps one day you turn away from the false history and PR they have long advanced and open your eyes to the truth of the ideology of apartheid at the root of it all.
Oh how much you presume and demonstrate that truly do not understand about the US political system and the continuity of its prevailing agendas, dis. Wrong again.
Many of the players you cite are heavily involved to this day in the directing the policy prerogatives of this admin as much as they have in decades prior. That their perch may have changed is of little matter inside the beltway.
So amazingly naive yet cock sure of your every mistaken post it is truly as discomforting to behold as an episode of The Office.
You don’t make sense. Being hypocritical and two faced is a matter of morality or ‘correctness’. All governments are, of course, not morally correct.
What are you trying to say? That the West as a group of nations have supported or ignored oppressive regimes at the same time as claiming to be pro-democracy? So they are therefore morally inferior to the rest of the world?
Pulling emotive examples of rape and murder out of a hat doesn’t strengthen or make any point whatsoever.
So you would have been all for the war in Iraq then? Seeing as the regime there was brutal and murderous.
You talk nonsense and contradict yourself. So is your point that the West is somehow inferior to some countries that are "nice" and don't do evil?
I’d call not swallowing your conspiracy theorist fantasies and other anti-American propaganda reasonable and rational. President Bush meanwhile is the first Republican president to support an independent Palestinian state. The EU and Russia agree. President Bush supports an independent Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel and I wholeheartedly agree with him.
Israel has shown that it will compromise on the Disputed Territories, its withdrawn from Gaza – and further withdrawals from sections of the West Bank will follow.
In 2000 Barak offered 97% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza (and a land-link between them) – as well as Arab neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state and billions from an international fund to resettle Palestinian refugees in the Palestinian state. Arafat acting for the Palestinians turned it down without a counter-offer. He instead pursued violence allowing the second intifada to erupt.
In spite of Palestinian violence Sharon, a true statesman courageously withdrew from Gaza and his successor is now seeking to continue what Sharon started – and fulfil Israelis desperation for peace. Olmert has pledged further compromises. Israel’s right to secure borders – something even affirmed by the UN makes a 100% withdrawal of the West Bank unfeasible but Israel has offered to before, is considering, should and hopefully will withdraw from the vast bulk of the West Bank.
Comparisons between Israel and apartheid South Africa can only come from somebody uneducated on the ills of the apartheid regime in South Africa and completely ignorant of present day Israel. The Arab minority in Israel are full citizens with equal voting rights and representation in the Knesset. I dunno, maybe Clan thinks blacks were treated equally in apartheid South Africa – otherwise his bizarre claim simply doesn’t make sense. Clan forgets that the Palestinians have increased their autonomy over their own affairs, the eventual aim is an independent state. And I support that, I support two states living side by side in peace. I’m for both sides, I’m pro-Israel and pro-Palestine – it’s sad that Clan is too consumed with hatred for one side to recognise the benefits for all in a peaceful two state solution. Also Clan, Palestinians who work in Israel are entitled to social benefits and they can also attend Israeli universities. I guess you’re really unfamiliar with how blacks were treated in apartheid South Africa huh?
Yet pulling emotive examples of mere rhetoric, as you and others here do, somehow does "strengthen of make any point whatosever"? How intriguing. :chin:
Apparently actions and the well documented repitition of those actions nearly every decade if not more several times a decade since WWII (however enshrouded in glorious platitudes of intent) don't speak louder to the mind of today's youth than mere angry words.
Guess Iran had better start investing in Madison avenue since its not enough that they have not attacked any neighbouring countries nor actually broken any international conventions in contrast to those who have repeated done so yet with plenty of mainstream tv and big money sloganeering to make it all excusable.
Astounding!
Bush, firstly has little direct comprehension himself of the world outside his texas ranch let alone the country. Those placed around him to ensure consistent maintenance of the prevailing neocon reassertion of empire, are not the slightest bit concerned with ensuring any just conditions for peace. That you continue to despeerately cling to this delusion on shows your understanding is derived from little more than the routine parade of dishonest punditry that has hijacked mainstream media for its one sided extremist platform.
Again you blather on with the further mantra of the Gaza pullout and supposed withdrawls from the West Bank whilst completely missing the reality that Gaza has remained an entirely encircled subjugated bantustan under constant bombardment, dehumanising daily brutality toward women and elderly, house demolitions and the roster of atrocities that have not changed since the first colonialist minded, terrorist founders began their ethnocidal clearances more than half a century ago. When done by Nazi's towards Jews you rightly rant, but perpetrated in similar principle by Israelis against the rightful indigenous inhabitants of the land and you make no end of lame apologies.
One can only deduce that you suffer some deep-rooted schizophrenia that causes such dichotomy of clearly consistent principle.
No child, you do not remotely comprehend the lies you parrot either with regard to US policy intentions and motivations nor those long demonstrated by your pet Middle Eastern terrorist nation.
Sad little dis.
That you also return again and again to this repeatedly debunked falsehood only further underscores your willful adherence to fantasy.
I will return later to dispell your further fantasy of the "full citizenship" of Israeli Arabs (a point previously addressed many times to no avail against dis's bubble of preferred ideological entremist propaganda). Though amsuing to no end to constantly point out your inability to do more than childishly parrot the claims of rabid demagogues like Pipes and Dershowitz, one does need a break from such inane exercises every now and again.
Until then I suggest you bother informing yourself on the concept of the "bantustan" and its demonstrable corallary practiced by Israel. A matter that obviously has failed to penetrate that bigotted and racist bubble of extremism in which you dwell.
Bravo! :thumb:
What have you plucked this shite about "moral inferiority" out of your arse for?
The US claims to stand for one thing, and does the exact opposite. That is an objective and empirical fact. Do you deny this?
It doesn't make it morally "inferior", but it does make it a liar and a hypocrite. It makes it no better than other countries that murder people for economic and political gain; it makes it no better than other countries with the death penalty; it makes it no better than the old regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq who raped and murdered political opponents.
Quite what the difference between the evil Taleban and the just Contras is beyond me. Maybe you could elaborate?
The US specifically sanctioned death squads, rape, torture and mutilation in Chile and Nicaragua for economic and political reasons. This is a proven fact. Go and type the word "contra" into any search engine.
Do you deny this too?
What's this got to do with anything?
I believe the phrase is "put your own house in order first" before blowing up 100,000 people and bringing about civil war in a country for purely economic reasons. For the umpteenth time in the last forty years.
I don't think anyone laments the demise of Saddam, but you'd have to be a fucking idiot to try and claim that's why the US invaded Iraq. Especially given that in Iraq its mostly a case of meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss.
And I'm still awaiting the humanitarian invasions into Zimbabwe and Sudan. I wonder why the US aren't there already, it couldn't POSSIBLY be that there isn't any black sticky liquid in the ground there, could it?
I really hope you're not suggesting for a minute the US policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been fair... :rolleyes:
I'm sure there would have been fierce criticism of any Clinton-back illegal war, yes.
And if Clinton had done all the other things the chimp has, from tearing up non-proliferation treaties to threatening, bullying and bribing those who dare oppose his plans to spitting in the face of the entire world regarding environmental agreements to violating every convention in the book and creating concentration camps to reigniting a world-wide arms race, he would have received as much criticism as Bush has.
Are you suggesting that the stick Bush gets is somehow undeserved?
Oh, you don't need to resort to past US Presidents... our very own chimp was shaking hands with child-slaver and brutal murderer President Karimov of Uzbekistan while at the same time lecturing the world about the need to get rid of brutal murderer Saddam Hussein.
Create a thread on those issues and I will criticise France as well. Not entirely my fault if the topics everyone wants to talk about involve the actions of the US government around the world.
For the millionth time, I have not said anywhere they are morally inferior to the rest of the world. :rolleyes:
Or is it that it doesn't make comfortable reading?
I mean, it's not nice to learn that the lovely Western governments of the US and Britain chose respectively to help to power and support a brutal madman who had women raped by specially trained dogs, is it?
But hey, the democratically elected government of Chile was a bit lefty so it was entirely justified the US overthrew a democracy and put a fascist in its place.
No. As I've explained earlier in the post, and many times in the past.
If you are are a liar and a hypocrite you are morally inferior in my book, but if thats a bit complex for you then we can leave it out.
"Better" is an odd word to use when comparing countries as it could mean anything. I assumed you meant morally "better" but you didn't like that. So what do you mean? Do you know?
They don't do the exact opposite, but that's debatable and not an objective and empirical fact at all really. The American government do ethically wrong things, so do all governments. In my opinion the American government isn't a particularly morally dubious one when compared with most.
Not quite sure what I'm supposed to be denying. I'm pointing out that its stupid to say that the Western governments are ethically or morally worse than any other group of countries. I'd say that they are more ethical than most.
Someone's awfully pleased with themselves today! :thumb:
But anyway, whats your point? The US are bad because they haven't intervened in Zimbabwe or Sudan? Yes, it's ethically wrong (bad if you have trouble understanding that), but so is every other government.
Well ok then, you agree with me then.
I was just responding to the things you said that implied thats what you were trying to say.
About how the West are "hypocritical" and from what you said, worse than other countries:
If you believe being hypocritical means being morally inferior then so be it. But one thing has nothing to do with the other.
Not sure I understand this. Yes, the West is hypocritical, for the reasons stated above.
So basically your point is rather pointless as it leads to exactly what I was saying.
You say the West is hypocritical, but not "worse" (read morally inferior) than other countries.
So you are must either mean that being hypocritical is not a morally bad thing, or that the West isn't "worse" because other countries' governments are hypocritical too.
But the point remains, the only point I was actually making (and that you are choosing to ignore and miss) is that Western governments are highly hypocritical, and in many cases much more so than other governments.
Neither of those things.
m aladdin, every government, political faction, in fact most organisations (non-gvmt) are/has been/can be hypocritical. do you know any political organisation that has never had a case of hypocrisy?? if there are any, id expect it to be a little more than a handful.
the discussion in my opinion would be more fruitful if we move on from hypocrisy because i believe the argument is a dead end.
althoug, m groovechampion, i think i can see where m aladdin is coming from.
i believe hyprocrisy, in whatver degree, is evident in every goverment/political faction. i believe its a matter of keeping face.
so lets say hypocrisy is hypocrisy no matter what. the US, however, is a large nation with its influence spanning the globe. therefore i think, in a sense, the wrong doings of the US, because of its global platform, is magnified compared to the wrong doings of a smaller less influential nation.
its similar to the story of the emperor and pirate...
"Noam Chomsky recounts a story told by Saint Augustine about a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. Alexander asked the pirate "how he dares molest the sea". "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied. "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an Emperor." It is a tale of power and hypocrisy and for Chomsky, it exposes the dynamic of imperialist domination."
(quoted from http://www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/BiteBack/BB1.htm)