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Cloning

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Probably been done, sorry, but i picked up the paper and saw 'First Cloned Human Embryo' i'm a bit concerned! Any thoughts about this?
I'm all in favour of cloning organs for transplant but that is it.
Not creating a person and then harvesting tissue from them, that is just sick.

All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well they 'say' that they only created this embryo to see what they could do with cells and that they werent going to try and clone a person.

    I remember a couple of years back when they made dolly the sheep. They 'said' they would never even contemplate cloning an embryo..

    Im certain that within the year someone will have implanted an embryo into a woman and produced a cloned baby. These people dont give a shit about the fact that only 3 in 8 of these embryos came out ok. Thats gonna be 5 in 8 failed clones which are gonna be seriously screwed up. Of course the abortion issue shows how much our govt thinks of human life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the cloning of a baby is enivatble, and i totally disagree with it. But on the subject of cloning stem cells, this for me is a major medical breakthrough and i welcome it, with a hint of caution. Any progress which will reduce disease and suffering for new borns has to be of benefit ? People by nature are cautious of attempts at groundbreaking progress, and i hope this continues, hopefully therefore ensuring this whole situation remains as safe as possible !
    But in the long term, a couple of risks now, may reap rewards of a greater proportion later on !

    drugs may be the road to nowhere, but at least there the scenic route
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really have no problem with cloning cells and other research for genuine medical purposes. I do have a problem with cloning people in order to harvest their organs.

    All this genetic research is great stuff. Some of the stuff these guys do is marvellous for the medical profession. Unfortunately its a double edged sword..Great good can come of it but so can great evil.

    Its bound to be abused and when it is it will produce some horrific results.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    Great good can come of it but so can great evil.


    very true, so perhaps the question is - Will the good that will come out of it justify the evil ? intesting balancing act, it would only take one complete nutter, but then we are talking about a very difficult technique, needing very specialised equipment and hence could only ever be undertaken with government/company consent/supervision !

    drugs may be the road to nowhere, but at least there the scenic route
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the benefits probably will outweigh the bad stuff.

    One or two nutters trying to create a clone army or something probably wont outweigh a cure for cancer for example.

    I think hollywood has written all the horror stories of cloning. There are dozens of movies featuring clones and almost all of them show the bad stuff.

    There are a lot of rich people/companies out there with very questionable morals. These are the kind of people we need to worry about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    I think the rate of sucessful cloning is even less than that, probably even lower when it comes to human cloning.

    I am generally in favour of all sorts of genetic engineering/cloning science, mostly because I tend to take a hyper-long view of the human race and where it's going. Considering the number of possible Armegeddon scenarios that are being dreamt up I'd like to think the human race survives by making our species a lot tougher.

    As an aside, H. Sap likes nothing better than taking the natural world and squeezing every possible resource out of it for it's own purposes, the genetic code won't be any different to the environment, petrochemical resources, medicine and all the rest of the stuff we mess about with as a by-product of civilization.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *stares vacantley at the stars and wonders what the future holds* <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif"&gt;

    drugs may be the road to nowhere, but at least there the scenic route
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *ebenEzer bad just stares vacantley!*

    All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *laughs as a bird shits in ebenEzer's eye*

    This whole issue is a toughie. personally it really pulls at a morals and I can't justify it. I always think of something Michale Crichton one wrote "Scientists spend too much time wondering if something CAN be done, to consider if something SHOULD"

    Guess really sums up my feeling. There can be NO justification for cloning - especially when all we get at the moment is a vague promise of a cancer cure, and that's only said because it pulls at your emotions inorder to get your support for the project. There i sno clinical basis for such a claim. Its like the New Mexico scientists suggesting nuclear weaponry would bring world peace - has it happened?

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/parental.gif"&gt;

    Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage.

    http://www.faceparty.com/manofkent
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think, that cloning is just the human race's way of adapting to our new surroundings. Before it took millenia, now, because of the new diseases and pollution, it is spurring people on to do it with more urgency. Cloning our cells to aid the repair of our bodies is the next logical step, giving nature a helping hand, well 100,000 years in advance anyway.
    I personally think, that if used correctly this will be the next step for humanity.

    You don't think I'd ruin the mystery about me do you?!?
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    *laughs as a bird shits in ebenEzer's eye*

    "Scientists spend too much time wondering if something CAN be done, to consider if something SHOULD"

    Guess really sums up my feeling. There can be NO justification for cloning - especially when all we get at the moment is a vague promise of a cancer cure

    So they should just give up and go home ? there's only so much progress you can make studying drug therapy. We have now evolved to an extent we can change the way we are before we are born, this may seem uncomfortable but if it goes on to prevent a crippling disease then so be it, it may prove in time to be on a par with the discovery of penicillin, anaesthetic or x-ray, all were dangerous and mis-understood in there day, but know are run of the mill treatments, purely because these scientists were to busy wondering if it could be done, to worry if it should be done ! As the world and life throws new challenges at the human race then we must rise to it.



    drugs may be the road to nowhere, but at least there the scenic route
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The cloning for resaerch and development for cures has got to be good and they say that they will never let the eggs grow. But there is always one scientist who wants to take things one step further and sooner or later they will decided it will be a good idea to clone a whole human so we will have to wait and see if it turns to be a great medical step or a huge mess
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pkc:
    ...they say that they will never let the eggs grow...

    Don't be so naive

    ...so we will have to wait and see if it turns to be a great medical step or a huge mess

    But should we just sit back while some scientist attempts to clone a human and wait for the consequences? Sometimes we think we know a lot more about human genetics than we actually do. There is a lot that is due entirely to chance that can never be predicted. There are plenty of problems which have yet to be overcome even in animal cloning - premature aging, ethical issues etc.

    Most humans have some morals. We may not agree on certain things but human life is not something we should take for granted. Medical research is one thing, but full human cloning should never be allowed. We are all created individuals and that is how it should remain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    "Medical research is one thing, but full human cloning should never be allowed. We are all created individuals and that is how it should remain."

    Why??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because then we'll be playing GOD!

    All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Theoretically, as the majority of scientists dont beleive in God than they cannot belive that they are playing GOd - they see that they have the right to as there is no superior being existing as to precede them in godlyness.

    Nayway back to the point, the cloning of stem cells for research is fine, as is the cloning of an embreo, I believe (as I will always argue in the Abortion debate) that a life is not born until it is much futher into development, as opposed to being a life from the moent of conception) The cloning of embreos is right/fair, and ethincal as we should do all we can to alliviate human suffering, and distree, if to do this the research and clomning of tissues are the most productive methods then thats great, we will ahve a cure for cancer in the next 50 years we cannot fail to do so, and if the only way to achive our success is by tyhe cloning of an embreo then so be it.

    - The closing of a full human I however must disagree with, it is not a necesity, either the clones will be used as a base for organs etc and this is a horrible concept or we create a subculture of a substandard race.

    just my 2p.


    --
    concentirc_circles

    Sex is the only liquid center at the great Newberry Fruit of friendship. - Jilly Cooper 1937 -
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Marmite:
    Because then we'll be playing GOD!

    no more so than curing somebody who is going to die otherwise, say with cancer treatment - but thats o.k is it ?



    drugs may be the road to nowhere, but at least there the scenic route
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is well known that one of the only reasons people place so much faith in religion is because it fills in the gaps that science can't explain. How else can you explain why the majority of people living in the West are deemed Godless and decadent by our technologially backward chums in the East? As soon as science starts to fill the gaps, who needs religion?

    As for cloning, I feel cloning an entire person is wrong for ethical and not religious reasons. Creating a human designed to be used for little more than slavery. Imagine what cloned humans would be used for, medical orderlies, labourers maybe even cannon fodder for armies while the real soldiers use them as shields? Who knows?
    Cloned cells on the other hand? Like genetic engineering to make us live longer and healthier I have no problems with.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Without religion i don't see what meaning life has, i'm entitled to my opinions respect that.

    All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Marmite:
    Without religion i don't see what meaning life has, i'm entitled to my opinions respect that.


    I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. Faith and religion are 2 entirely different things that sort of intermingle. Religion is the orgnaised version of someone's faith and beliefs. I do believe that there is something/someone waiting for us when we die, but I don't know what.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's alright mate, i tend to agree i have faith but as REM said i'm loosing my religion.

    All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere:
    As soon as science starts to fill the gaps, who needs religion?
    Me. Science is very useful for us to work out a general pattern in life e.g. DNA, gravity, energy use. But science never answers 'why?'. I don't know about you but I think there's something bigger and better than us out there.
    As for cloning, I feel cloning an entire person is wrong for ethical and not religious reasons. Creating a human designed to be used for little more than slavery. Imagine what cloned humans would be used for, medical orderlies, labourers maybe even cannon fodder for armies while the real soldiers use them as shields? Who knows?
    We get our morals historically from religion. Why do you think cloned humans would only be suitable as medical orderlies/cannon fodder etc.? Surely a cloned human being would be exactly the same as the human on which they are based? Cloned humans would have the mental abilities of any other human; they would not be super strong. Don't mix science-fiction with science-fact.
    Cloned cells on the other hand? Like genetic engineering to make us live longer and healthier I have no problems with.
    How exactly do a few cloned embryo cells suddenly give us a cure for cancer? I don't think the main aim is to find a cure for cancer, but to engineer replacement organs/skin grafts or to create new drugs which are specific to the patient. Cancer cells are easy to study without the use of cloned embryos.

    There are benefits of human embryo research, but I cannot agree with humna cloning.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    One of the ideas of cloning would be to use people as "organ farms", and the idea has been put forward to doing it with animals. Essentially you have a normal person, however they have no cognitive function or higher learning ability, don't feel pain e.t.c. Essentially a man from the stone age.

    As for the cure to cancer, the idea is that cells that have no trace of cancer or other diseases can be used as a replacement for diseased cells. That is why people are talking about a cure for aids, the idea being they are able to manufacture white blood cells that won't be rejected, and although not curing AIDS itself, enabling the sufferer to live as they will not die from the many diseases that actually kill them, for those who don't know, AIDS doesn't kill, it simply destroys the immune system. If you can create a new one from scratch then you wont die from it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    "We get our morals historically from religion. "

    We may indeed get a sense of morality and ethics from religion, but I don't think it's entirely relevant anymore. The world has moved on from the time when the Good Book was written. It's like trying to study the Universe using only Newton's laws of motion, inadequate for the job.

    What may help is a re-definition of what can and can't be considered human to start with. Should a cloned embryo with the capabilty to become human automatically have human rights??

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/new/catinthehat.gif"&gt;
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Lord of Little:

    We may indeed get a sense of morality and ethics from religion, but I don't think it's entirely relevant anymore. The world has moved on from the time when the Good Book was written. It's like trying to study the Universe using only Newton's laws of motion, inadequate for the job.

    You obviously haven't read the 'Good Book' then because if you had, you would realise that the world has changed very little in 2000 years. The Bible is as relevant today as Newton's laws of motion - very. Whether you believe in God or not, the Bible still makes a lot of sense.

    Science can satisfy most questions: what?, how?, where?; but never why?. There's no doubt that science has brought many benefits but it does have limitations. It cannot solve every problem in the world. And that's where religion fits in.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It cannot solve every problem in the world. And that's where religion fits in.

    Religion also cannot solve those problems that science cant. It can merely provide one possible answer based on one particular set of beliefs.

    Having said that I do agree that the bible is very relevant today. Im not a practicing Christian myself but I still follow a set of morals that are strongly based on the Christian values I learnt as a child. The bible sets down a fundamental set of rules that are a very good basis for morality.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Lord of Little:
    The world has moved on from the time when the Good Book was written.

    No it hasn't. Afghanistan is proof of this. So is the continued existence of Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism and the rest.




    You're damn right we need a rational code of morality and ethics. But not much progress can be made in that direction while we've still got a majority ranting about gods, devils, souls, and absolute morality, and using an ancient book written by ignorant nomads as a guide.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    No it hasn't. Afghanistan is proof of this. So is the continued existence of Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism and the rest.

    Those religions are all relics of the past, a time when people had no choice but to fear what they didn't know.
    They are all wrong because all of them say none of the others can be right, that fundamental contradiction means the current religions are all a load of crap anyway.

    Where exactly in the bible does it forbid humanity from messing around with nature? Cloning and the genetic engineering of the human race is the only chance that our species can evolve to cope with the new diseases that are uncovered everyday.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    Religion also cannot solve those problems that science cant. It can merely provide one possible answer based on one particular set of beliefs.
    Hence the need for faith. Some people believe in God, some in Allah, others in New Age practices, and others put their trust solely in scientists and humanity. Do what you like, but I believe there is something bigger and better than even the brainiest of scientists, namely God.
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