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Crucial 'missing link' in Theory of Evolution found

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What proportion of all people who have claimed to be holy or to be the messiah have had religions based on their lives continue for 2000 years and keep growing after their death?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    2000, 1000 or even 500 years ago men and women would be prepared to believe a great many things their descendants today simply wouldn't if presented with them for the first time.

    Or later.

    Mormons and Joshua Smith circa 1835

    Scientology and Ron L. Hubbard circa 1956

    Sun Myung Moon - Messiah circa 1970

    etc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Two or three have done very well.

    Religions are in many ways like corporations and businesses. The bigger they get, the more smaller ones they will drive 'out of business' and the more clients they will amass.

    Once Christianty had cemented its foundations in the 4th century the ball got really rolling. Once rulers and populace alike embraced the religion and started to teach it to their children, the fail-safe system was in place.

    I'm convinced that if you could somehow isolate all children born from tomorrow onwards from all religious education and ensure no person is taught religion as fact until they reach adulthood, all religions would dissapear from the face of the earth forever within 100 years despite all the best efforts religious people could master- certainly in developed countries anyway. Third world/remote parts might take a little longer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm convinced that if you could somehow isolate all children born from tomorrow onwards from all religious education and ensure no person is taught religion as fact until they reach adulthood, all religions would dissapear from the face of the earth forever within 100 years despite all the best efforts religious people could master- certainly in developed countries anyway. Third world/remote parts might take a little longer.
    the facts speak otherwise.
    wherever and whenever religous belief has been stifled ...it has blossomed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Religions are in many ways like corporations and businesses. The bigger they get, the more smaller ones they will drive 'out of business' and the more clients they will amass.
    :lol:

    Complete and utter bullshit tbh.
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm convinced that if you could somehow isolate all children born from tomorrow onwards from all religious education and ensure no person is taught religion as fact until they reach adulthood, all religions would dissapear from the face of the earth forever within 100 years despite all the best efforts religious people could master- certainly in developed countries anyway. Third world/remote parts might take a little longer.

    And that would be a good thing?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm convinced that if you could somehow isolate all children born from tomorrow onwards from all religious education and ensure no person is taught religion as fact until they reach adulthood, all religions would dissapear from the face of the earth forever within 100 years despite all the best efforts religious people could master- certainly in developed countries anyway.
    Your dogma is what I worry about. What you would like, in actual fact, is that all schoolchildren were taught your world view. How is that any better than teaching them Christianity, or Islam or Nazism?
    Third world/remote parts might take a little longer.
    Cos they're less discerning?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Your dogma is what I worry about. What you would like, in actual fact, is that all schoolchildren were taught your world view. How is that any better than teaching them Christianity, or Islam or Nazism?

    Cos they're less discerning?
    what he fails to see is his taliban mentality which i have pointed out many times ...he is against freedom ...even the freedom of parents to bring up and teach their own children in a manner they see fit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Cos they're less discerning?

    Nope cos people in poverty tend to look more towards God. Heaven as a reward for a tough life is a tempting idea and God is seen as the way to this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Nope cos people in poverty tend to look more towards God. Heaven as a reward for a tough life is a tempting idea and God is seen as the way to this.
    Or even when you are living hand-to-mouth you are more aware of God's provision perhaps? Unless you are trying to say that those in the developing world have less sincere faith? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Or even when you are living hand-to-mouth you are more aware of God's provision perhaps? Unless you are trying to say that those in the developing world have less sincere faith? :confused:
    rarely do the materialy comfortable have much time for spirituality,
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Unless you are trying to say that those in the developing world have less sincere faith? :confused:

    :confused:

    Did I even imply it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    And that would be a good thing?
    I don't think why it wouldn't, for two basic reasons:

    1. Religion and morality are not necessarily linked. I.e. you don't need to be a religious person to be able to tell between right and wrong and have a moral compass.

    2. Even if religions themselves didn't meant for it to happen (and then again given some of the 'advice' the major religions give to their subjects, it's no wonder it did), the fact remains that organised religion has been the cause of more suffering, hatred, wars, death and misery than anything else in human history. Perhaps man is simply not suitable for religion. Perhaps we can't handle it. Either way, man's use of religion has caused far more harm than good to mankind, and even today religion is at the forefront of most conflicts, wars and disputes. We'd be far better off without it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Your dogma is what I worry about. What you would like, in actual fact, is that all schoolchildren were taught your world view. How is that any better than teaching them Christianity, or Islam or Nazism?
    Where have I said I would like children to be taught my world views? :rolleyes:

    I've said that children should not be taught unproven and improbable beliefs as fact. They can still be taught a history of world religions.

    Why on earth should we mix up religious beliefs with education? Can we teach children other things as well? Can we tell them for a fact that the earth is flat, or that there are seven-headed aliens from Alpha Centaury that like nothing more than a crispy human for breakfast, or the Spaguetti Eating Monster is real?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
    there are no extant contemporaneous documents that make mention of Jesus
    A significant factor in considering the historicity of the Gospels is the Synoptic problem: in some areas, the first three Gospels seem to contradict each other, while in other areas they are so close in wording that one could almost be a direct copy of the other
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    rarely do the materialy comfortable have much time for spirituality,

    I don't get what the motivation for the materially uncomfortable would be though either- to say thanks for the marvelous starving strength of faith test? ok, sarcasm aside- wouldn't a believer be angry/upset/disollusioned if their god made them suffer, even after following all the rules, and heathens around them prospered? Yup, I just don't get it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Getting back to the original point, I can safely say I am very very skeptical about this "amazing new find".

    You should all go and read Bill Bryson's wonderful Short History of Nearly Everything, and read all about how, basically, scientists make nearly everything up off the top of their head.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Verrry good book.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Getting back to the original point, I can safely say I am very very skeptical about this "amazing new find".

    You should all go and read Bill Bryson's wonderful Short History of Nearly Everything, and read all about how, basically, scientists make nearly everything up off the top of their head.
    Unlike the apostles.

    :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    1. Religion and morality are not necessarily linked. I.e. you don't need to be a religious person to be able to tell between right and wrong and have a moral compass.

    I agree but what's your point? Religion is about God, not morals. The Bible even says that we sin. Repentance of sin is the way to God. (Not that I believe in it I'm just playing Devils Advocate)
    Aladdin wrote:
    2.the fact remains that organised religion has been the cause of more suffering, hatred, wars, death and misery than anything else in human history.

    Got a source for that? I don't think it is anywhere close to being the biggest cause of suffering. The biggest cause of suffering has been wars between countries and countries invading other countries. WW2 alone c.60 million people died. Do you really think religious wars have killed that many over the years? And that's just WW2 I'm talking about, there's loads of other wars where religion was not a factor with many casualties.
    Aladdin wrote:
    Perhaps man is simply not suitable for religion. Perhaps we can't handle it. Either way, man's use of religion has caused far more harm than good to mankind, and even today religion is at the forefront of most conflicts, wars and disputes. We'd be far better off without it.

    No, man can handle religion, very well in most cases. Certain individuals have used religion as a tool for violence and usually there's always some sort of ulterior motive when they use it. All religions practice peace and tolerance, sure there may be a few passages in all books that say otherwise but generally it gives a good message.

    You have the right to be an atheist but religious people also have a right to be religious. I find it slightly worrying and totalitarian to some degree that you wouldn't mind seeing religion removed from society in the near future.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    I agree but what's your point? Religion is about God, not morals. The Bible even says that we sin. Repentance of sin is the way to God. (Not that I believe in it I'm just playing Devils Advocate)



    Got a source for that? I don't think it is anywhere close to being the biggest cause of suffering. The biggest cause of suffering has been wars between countries and countries invading other countries. WW2 alone c.60 million people died. Do you really think religious wars have killed that many over the years? And that's just WW2 I'm talking about, there's loads of other wars where religion was not a factor with many casualties.



    No, man can handle religion, very well in most cases. Certain individuals have used religion as a tool for violence and usually there's always some sort of ulterior motive when they use it. All religions practice peace and tolerance, sure there may be a few passages in all books that say otherwise but generally it gives a good message.

    You have the right to be an atheist but religious people also have a right to be religious. I find it slightly worrying and totalitarian to some degree that you wouldn't mind seeing religion removed from society in the near future.
    the problem with all the death from the wars of the hitlers of this world isn't down to religion but ...the cowardice of religous leaders mean they go along with it all ...to the point of blessing both sides ...assuring the catholics on both sides that god is with them ...enabling them to kill each other ...same with the proddys.
    and if the bible is right in all chritians are brothers then the churches are responsible for spurring on brother to kill brother.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    You have the right to be an atheist but religious people also have a right to be religious. I find it slightly worrying and totalitarian to some degree that you wouldn't mind seeing religion removed from society in the near future.

    I think some people are psychologically inclined towards religion so it's always going to be part of the human experience...but getting rid of indoctrination and allowing people true freedom of religion - including freedom from brainwashing as a child - is definitely the way forward.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    I agree but what's your point? Religion is about God, not morals. The Bible even says that we sin. Repentance of sin is the way to God. (Not that I believe in it I'm just playing Devils Advocate)
    Well you were asking if the dissapearance of religion from the world would be a good thing. I was addressing one of the main points argued by religious types, that religion helps people tell right from wrong and that without religion everyone would turn evil or something.


    Got a source for that? I don't think it is anywhere close to being the biggest cause of suffering. The biggest cause of suffering has been wars between countries and countries invading other countries. WW2 alone c.60 million people died. Do you really think religious wars have killed that many over the years? And that's just WW2 I'm talking about, there's loads of other wars where religion was not a factor with many casualties.
    Religion has been the main cause of wars, conflicts and repression of citizens throughouout thousands of years of human history. Religion-caused conflicts are as strong now as they have ever been, and just one look at the world today would make you think they will continue to exist well into the future.

    I don't know about absolute numbers we get down to add up victims of world wars and so on. But it isn't just about body counts- it's about repression, distrust, animosity and influence on peoples and countries alike.


    You have the right to be an atheist but religious people also have a right to be religious. I find it slightly worrying and totalitarian to some degree that you wouldn't mind seeing religion removed from society in the near future.
    How could it be authoritarian if I am not suggesting that religion should be eradicated by force? :confused:

    I'm simply saying that if people weren't programmed as children religion would die off. And if that were to happen it would be on account of people not subscribing to it any more, rather than me or anyone else attempting to ban it or eradicate it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I don't know about absolute numbers we get down to add up victims of world wars and so on. But it isn't just about body counts- it's about repression, distrust, animosity and influence on peoples and countries alike.
    .

    But that's not the religion that's causing that. It's the humans who are in control and who corrupt the religion.

    Religion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm simply saying that if people weren't programmed as children religion would die off

    I wish that were true, but I doubt it actually. How did the first seed of religion start? Not through being taught it by a parent, else it wouldn't be the first init.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote:
    I wish that were true, but I doubt it actually. How did the first seed of religion start? Not through being taught it by a parent, else it wouldn't be the first init.

    I think the first religious people worshipped nature. Like the sun, moon and trees and stuff like that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So if we were to stop telling our children to say their prayers and generally acting like religion and gods are real, why wouldn't this next generation of children not start the same thing- worshipping nature etc. If we halted the current religions, I think others would emerge- as though there is some intrinsic human need to worship and to attribute the as yet unknown to 'gods'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote:
    their is some intrinsic human need to worship .
    yes ...all through history and in every tribe and nation that ever existed and no matter how remote.
    it does seem to be pre programmed into us or hardwired if you like.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All religion is a way of interacting with the real world. It's early science, in other words. Long lost theories that have hung around long after they have been disproved.

    If you didn't tell modern people about religion they would replace it with science.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    . Long lost theories that have hung around long after they have been disproved.

    If you didn't tell modern people about religion they would replace it with science.
    in this scientific age religions old and new are flourishing.
    you just can't bare the thought of something more important and bigger than you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in this scientific age religions old and new are flourishing

    That;'s because most people aren't scientific, and they get all that scar tissue of thought that you get from indoctrination at an early age.
    you just can't bare the thought of something more important and bigger than you.

    :confused:
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