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£45,000 pa pension.

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    These people are people who know they can get up to any corruption they want, and can get away with it.

    Blair is the most corrupt Prime Minister in history, yet people still "hold their nose" and vote for the grasping little cunt. Brown is no better, Cameron will be until he's in Government, and then he'll be the same.

    If you've got the time off go to every MP's surgery, and ask him time and time again why he thinks he's worth the pension, why he's worth his huge salary. Of course he won't say anything, just get you arrested, but its an amusing way to pass the time.

    These people do this because they can get away with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And people think that local government workers are greedy for wanting the £3000 pa (on average) pension that they've paid for with their own money?!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They haven't paid for it with their own money thogh, have they?

    Everything the government does id paid for through violence, coercion and theft. If you work for it you are paid for by theft. All government workers are thieves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    They haven't paid for it with their own money thogh, have they?

    Everything the government does id paid for through violence, coercion and theft. If you work for it you are paid for by theft. All government workers are thieves.
    Are consumers of public services also violent thieves?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    They haven't paid for it with their own money thogh, have they?

    Everything the government does id paid for through violence, coercion and theft. If you work for it you are paid for by theft. All government workers are thieves.

    How can you thieve something that doesn't exist? :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are consumers of public services also violent thieves?

    Yup.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I find it quite amazing, Kermit, the lengths to which people go to when they wish to deny the obvious -

    All government services are provided at the barrel of a gun.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Yup.
    Not much hope for the world then, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Depends what you mean by "hope".

    If people want to stop pretending they are moral, that's one option. The other option is ofc to act morally. Either is probably beneficial, given what it means.

    If everyone stops pretending their is a morality then they will all become very self interested, and will have nothing stopping them intelligently demanding much better behaviour from others (and working to make sure it happens).

    If everyone decides to behave morally, or hold some sort of moral code then great - the exact same result will transpire.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you think humanity without morals would be a better thing than the mish mash of morals we currently live with?

    If everyone becomes [more] self interested, what happens to those who cannot fend for themselves?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you think humanity without morals would be a better thing than the mish mash of morals we currently live with?

    Yup. I do indeed. (But I'll let you on a little secret, and that's that there is a common morality to all people.)
    If everyone becomes [more] self interested, what happens to those who cannot fend for themselves?

    Aren't you part of everyone? If this is the case, what do you care?

    Meh, crappy debating tactics aside - this is why I know there is a near universal morality that people share - any time I point out the whole "government is theft" thing, the instant response is always the same - "what about those less fortunate?"

    Given that everyone says the exact same thing, and would be free to do whatever they want to I can only assume that "those less fortunate" would be fine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Given that everyone says the exact same thing, and would be free to do whatever they want to I can only assume that "those less fortunate" would be fine.
    Interesting, but maybe we don't trust ourselves to look after each other if we have the choice not to. Before the NHS enforced healthcare to all (via theft, violence and coercion etc) do you reckon the provisions provided for the individuals willing to prioritise health were as good? It's also interesting that every major religion extols the virtue to looking after those less fortunate, healing the sick, and respecting others. If we have a naturally beneficent morality, why would those priorities need to be preached from every pulpit throughout the world?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting, but maybe we don't trust ourselves to look after each other if we have the choice not to.

    Then a "democracy" has no business doing so.
    Before the NHS enforced healthcare to all (via theft, violence and coercion etc) do you reckon the provisions provided for the individuals willing to prioritise health were as good?

    Do you think if those who wiled the club hadn't caved into everyone's wishes in this way (which only entranches their power, I might add) do you really think that things would have stayed that way?

    Where was the pressure for change coming from?
    It's also interesting that every major religion extols the virtue to looking after those less fortunate, healing the sick, and respecting others.

    Yes, every salesmen is taught to get a "yes" set going as well. 6 or 7 things you agree with and one you don't makes the one you don't easier to swallow. I'll just add that things only started improving once the major religions lost their thrall and leave it at that.
    If we have a naturally beneficent morality, why would those priorities need to be preached from every pulpit throughout the world?

    Exactly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Then a "democracy" has no business doing so.
    Surely the whole point of democracy is that people have a choice. People willingly choose to pay tax and to accept public services. Very few will decline medical treatment, or take their own rubbish to the landfill, or let their house burn down while the firemen sleep at the station.
    Do you think if those who wiled the club hadn't caved into everyone's wishes in this way (which only entranches their power, I might add) do you really think that things would have stayed that way?

    Where was the pressure for change coming from?
    Maybe the pressure was violence in the streets, theft and coercion caused by the social inequality of the time. How ironic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely the whole point of democracy is that people have a choice. People willingly choose to pay tax and to accept public services. Very few will decline medical treatment, or take their own rubbish to the landfill, or let their house burn down while the firemen sleep at the station.

    I am sorry, you must live somewhere else to me, because where I live I have to pay for those things whether I do them myself or not. There is no choice to say "no" so there is no choice at all. I get round the issue using various methods, but there is no "no" option whatsoever.

    Not only that, but those things aren't a neccessary part of government or democracy in any way shape or form. They are services, that could very easily be provided on a take it or leave it basis, just like any other product or service. They could also be provided by hundreds of different companies, people etc all competing for my cash.

    When you cannot say "no" your yes is meaningless.

    Or, to put it another way, I pop around to your house and empty your trash, then put you in prison if you don't pay me whatever I feel like charging you.
    Maybe the pressure was violence in the streets, theft and coercion caused by the social inequality of the time. How ironic.

    Sorry mate, this is gibberish to me. Could you explain it a bit?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Or, to put it another way, I pop around to your house and empty your trash, then put you in prison if you don't pay me whatever I feel like charging you.
    True, but most of us would regard the service as essentials, and best provided through central taxation. I'd suggest that rubbsih collection is a natural monopoly and to have more than one firm seeking to collect from different houses on the same street doesn't seem like much of a choice either.

    By choosing to take part in the democratic process, we choose to accept the style of government we have.
    Sorry mate, this is gibberish to me. Could you explain it a bit?
    If there is violence and danger in the streets threatening your way of life. If there is theft of property from other individuals. At that point we require not only security through public policing, but also social equality via public services. Altruism is not a universal phenomenon.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True, but most of us would regard the service as essentials, and best provided through central taxation.

    That's nice for you. Why do you suppose that gives you the right to threaten people who don't agree with jail?
    I'd suggest that rubbsih collection is a natural monopoly and to have more than one firm seeking to collect from different houses on the same street doesn't seem like much of a choice either.

    I'd suggest that if it was a natural monopoly you wouldn't need to use violence to make it one. If I fancied creating a business cheaper than the local binmen (not hard to do) the old violent idiots in "government" would stop me, either directly, or by stealing from everyone to undercut me, or by using the full weight of the law to make me get a licence.
    By choosing to take part in the democratic process, we choose to accept the style of government we have.

    Can you tell me where and when you choose to take part in the democratic process, and how I can say no please?

    If you cannot refuse the "democratic process" can you explain to me your definition of the word "choice"?
    If there is violence and danger in the streets threatening your way of life

    ......you are well within your rights to defend yourself....unless the thieves and danger come from the government.
    If there is theft of property from other individuals.

    So, you are saying that you give at least 80% of what you earn to someone in order to not (possibly) get robbed by some random stranger?
    At that point we require not only security through public policing, but also social equality via public services.

    There is no security from public policing. And there is no social equality through public services. The police do not now, and never have been there to protect you. Social equality is impossible, and even if it were how do you get social equality imposed upon you?

    The idea is absurd because the person doing it is obviously your superior.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    or by using the full weight of the law to make me get a licence.









    £135 MATE ...WASTE OPERATORS LICENSE ...AND IT LASTS THREE YEARS.
    one vehicle or two million ...£135.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    £135 MATE ...WASTE OPERATORS LICENSE ...AND IT LASTS THREE YEARS.

    Annnd if you went into direct competition with the local council....how much would it cost you then?
    #
    I'll not mention all the permits, leases, environmental health, local taxes, IR etc stuff you need just to open the gates these days either. Oh fuck i just did......

    My point wasn't that it was currently expensive, it was that you cannot provide alternative services to the government, they simply would not allow it. If you did the gravy train would crash.

    They'll either licence you to death, bully, steal, undercut or just force buy whatever you set up against them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Annnd if you went into direct competition with the local council....how much would it cost you then?
    #
    I'll not mention all the permits, leases, environmental health, local taxes, IR etc stuff you need just to open the gates these days either. Oh fuck i just did......

    My point wasn't that it was currently expensive, it was that you cannot provide alternative services to the government, they simply would not allow it. If you did the gravy train would crash.

    They'll either licence you to death, bully, steal, undercut or just force buy whatever you set up against them.
    your so out of touch with the modern world klint!
    very few councils run the bins these days ...where i live and for large pars of north wales it is run by a spanish company.
    the local skip yards ..run by sita ...a spanish company.
    same in most of manchester and a lot of other places.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    very few councils run the bins these days ...where i live and for large pars of north wales it is run by a spanish company. the local skip yards ..run by sita ...a spanish company. same in most of manchester and a lot of other places.
    Our rubbish is being dealt with by Spaniards? That's weird. :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Our rubbish is being dealt with by Spaniards? That's weird. :confused:
    their used to it, from our holiday makers!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    your so out of touch with the modern world klint!

    Nope. Not me me old hoss.
    very few councils run the bins these days ...where i live and for large pars of north wales it is run by a spanish company.

    I think you'll find that that spanish company has bribed the local officials quite heavily. And ofc, companies are creations of the state. That spanish company will be paying it's wedge to the state and if you were to set up in competition with it you would find exactly the same logic applying as if the council ran it directly.

    For the state, they get slightly cheaper services with no need to run it themselves (and therefore no accountability) in exchange for tax money AND cash from the company.
    the local skip yards ..run by sita ...a spanish company.

    Same logic applies. Oh and while the companies tax offices are in espanol, the shareholders will be from all over the globe. Annnnnd the fact there is only one company in charge of all the skip yards should clue you into what's going on.

    Mercantilist state is what have we. The state runs all companies in the UK, unless they are totally rogue, in which case they won't last long. How does it do this? Through H&S law, through company law, through licencing, through tarriffs and national insurance, through regulation, threats of regulation, inspectors, taxation, allowing the limited liability corporations, by adjudacating disputes yadda yadda.

    The nearest thing to it is facism, where the property nominally remains in private hands, but the state tells everyone what to do through legality.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock, mate, you still haven't said how the Government can nick something that doesn't exist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It can't.

    It can convince you that is what is happening and because you then believe it, you will act accordingly. That's right, isn't it, Englshman?

    The few who don't believe are SOL.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    It can convince you that is what is happening and because you then believe it, you will act accordingly.

    So why are you whining?

    You don't believe in money, so the government aren't nicking anything of yours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So why are you whining?

    Statements and otherwise pointing out the facts is whining now?
    You don't believe in money, so the government aren't nicking anything of yours.

    I'm not free to believe what I want AND act upon it am I?

    The parasites and killers you work for insist that I pay them in their money. That means I must expend my time and energy acquiring it instead of doing what I want.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    greedy cunts....this money should be going where its needed....a 45 grand a year pension is more than enough
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    greedy cunts....this money should be going where its needed....a 45 grand a year pension is more than enough
    Exactly - loads of people don't earn this much a year when working, why should they expect this much in a pension they haven't contributed towards?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Give anyone control of their own pay packet, and they will pay themselves far too much.

    Give them the right to fund themselves by force, and greed will go through the roof.
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