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So its wrong to kill an innocent person

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    can't disagree with that
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Society gives you the right - trial by jury for example. Being a human gives you the right - everyday you judge people based on your own values.

    Let me ask you this - what do you think of George Bush?

    If you have ANY answer then you have judged him. Whetethr you think of him as a good/bad man is ireelevant. The fact that you HAVE an opinion means that you have judged him. Afterall, what is an opinion if it is not a judgment?

    "Perhaps my best years are gone, but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now." - Samuel Beckett
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting

    But we judge him on his actions - surely.

    Is he a good person?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by byny:
    Interesting

    But we judge him on his actions - surely.

    Is he a good person?


    Yes, you judge him on his actions, but the point is you have judged him. If you had the power, would you do something about him?

    As for whether he is a good/bad man, that is a hard one to answer. Generally I think he is a dangerous man. His support for the 'star wars' program (I undertsnad the name of that program really pissed George Lucas off), the lack of action towards global warming, his christian fundamentalism are just a few of the things I find objectionable. But I do agree with his stance on terrorism (even if, in this case, he is only talking about OBL), we cannot let these people dictate to us, if we let these people run riot your and my civil liberties will be further eroded. The right wing element uses these kind of attacks as an excuse to install more CCTV, more draconian immigration laws, ID cards etc and that is something we should all be wary of.

    So, if the deaths of OBL and his cronies in some way preserves my liberty, then I cannot be too upset about it. It's not like anyone forced them to attack the US is it?


    "Perhaps my best years are gone, but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now." - Samuel Beckett
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No - nobody forced them to do it - which in a way is more worrying than if they had been forced!
    They really do believe they are justified, and they do have very strong feelings against the American 'Idea'.

    If I had the power to do something about Bush - would I?
    I'm not American so I can't vote in their elections, but I do support the votes/election/democracy system - so if that's the way to change things, that's what I would have done.
    I too dislike his environmental stance, his military stance, his economic stance. and I don't think he is really a good person - not good for the world
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem with US politics is that the alternative to Dubya was Al Gore. Hardly a significant move to the left, is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Carriage Return:
    How many lives does a weapon have to take before it becomes unacceptable? one.

    Should we chop off everyone's hands, then? Take away all knives?

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    By 'your very existence', I wasn't just referring to the person singular, but also everything you hold dear. The rights you have, the food on your table, the PC you use, the air you breathe, the thoughts you have, the opinions you can voice...

    If you would not fight for what makes you you then what would you fight for?

    Existence isn't just about being alive it about LIVING...


    Oh, quite, quite.

    The point I was trying to make is that I always allow room for doubt and error. I may or may not fight to a given extent for something. If I were to take up arms, I would have to be pretty confident I was doing a good thing. I wouldn't be certain, though - just betting on a probability.

    Hope that clears my PoV up a bit.




    You're damn right we need a rational code of morality and ethics. But not much progress can be made in that direction while we've still got a majority ranting about gods, devils, souls, and absolute morality, and using an ancient book written by ignorant nomads as a guide.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    When did vengeance become a naughty word? Whats wrong with vengeance? I have a feeling you might feel differently if one of your close family were ever murdered.

    Hey Balddog,

    I had a brother who was murdered a few years ago, stabbed in the throat in this bed, but that didn't mean that I had to go and kill his murderers for revenge, that's why we have laws to punish the guilty of the crimes they've committed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I had a brother who was murdered a few years ago, stabbed in the throat in this bed, but that didn't mean that I had to go and kill his murderers for revenge

    Maybe not but it also doesnt mean that you, I or anyone else has the right to tell someone else how to feel. Just because you didnt feel like getting revenge on your brothers killers, others do feel thats exactly what they want to do and that is totally understandable.

    Let me ask you something. When you first found out that your brother had been murdered did you feel even the slightest wish to 'get' the killer? Or did you immediately think how glad you were that he would be going to prison for a couple of years? Revenge is a very basic human emotion and an awful lot of people feel it when they have such a loss.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Stuey:
    Hey Balddog,

    I had a brother who was murdered a few years ago, stabbed in the throat in this bed, but that didn't mean that I had to go and kill his murderers for revenge, that's why we have laws to punish the guilty of the crimes they've committed.


    I am sorry for your loss, but you seem to have an unswerving loyalty for our legal system and an unusually high amount of restraint. If anyone killed my brother, doesnt matter how much of a twat he is, I would want to hunt the bastard down and kill him, much better I get sent away for manslaughter through diminshed responsibility, at least knowing my brother's killer won't be released in 10 years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I admit, it happened when I was only about 12, the only feelings I had was why could someone do this, for a stupid piece of f***** jewellery they said he robbed of them and decided to break into his flat in the early hours to try and retrieve it.

    But, I know that for the rest of thier lives they will have to live with the knowledge of ending a life and hopefully they are hurting too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Stuey:

    But, I know that for the rest of thier lives they will have to live with the knowledge of ending a life and hopefully they are hurting too.

    here's hoping, but do you believe that's how they feel? Were the people who did it caught?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know how they feel, I just feel that anyone who can take another life will be haunted for the rest of their lives by the fact they killed someone in cold blood.

    Yeah they were caught the very next day, it didn't take the detectives very long at all, they were only kids themselves.

    Through personal experience, I think that is why I have personally adopted the opinion that I have, that I firmly believe that killing is wrong and revenge serves no purpose, and I'm not a particularly religous person, but one of the ten commandments does tell us something like 'Thou shall not kill'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you wanna know another reason why I am against killing of any kind?

    OK, I am not bullshitting you, I have no reason too, plus the fact that I am going to openly admit that I am gay to you all.

    When I first went out on the scene, I was picked up by a guy who was much older than me, he spoilt me rotten, so I decided to go out with him. It was fun at first having a boyfriend for the first time, I used to stay at his a few nights a week and since I am a very nocturnal person, I used to lie awake half the night while he slept, quite often he used to jump up screaming and sweating, so I asked what was wrong, he wouldn’t tell me at first. It continued and after a while he told me what the nightmares were about.

    He told me that he was in the army and at the age of 23 he was involved in the Falklands War and he had killed a boy of about 16 years of age and he keeps seeing his face before he killed him. I was so young and immature and didn’t fully understand at the time and I said to him that it was his job, it was the reason he was there.

    I went through hell and back with that fella, he was hooked on prescribed drugs because of his guilt and his behaviour started to become totally irrational in fact it used to frightened me. I remember we had one hell of an argument one night and he was going to throw me out in the middle of the night, I was so upset at him turning against me so violently, I grabbed a kitchen knife and plunged it into my own stomach, it’s a miracle I am here to tell this tale, in the end his family committed him to a clinic in the end, and I decided to pack my bags and move back home.

    I don’t know what happened to him, I suppose I should have tried to find out, but he is such a wreck and he was taking me down with him.

    So all you macho lads who are willing to war and kill people, think about the physiological effects it might have on you and whether you could possibly live with them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Stuey,

    Just because one ex-soldier you knew had guilt problems doesnt mean everyone does. Theres also a WORLD of difference between killing someone in a war and 'wanting' revenge when a member of your family is killed.

    You say you are against killing of any kind so can you not see any circumstance where you would kill? Theres nothing that you could see that would make you kill someone? I find that VERY hard to believe.

    BTW...You say that your BF was committed? I dont mean to sound rude but have you seen a professional yourself? Stabbing yourself because of a lovers tiff isnt something a right minded person does.

    Also, just because we can see situations where killing someone is necessary doesnt mean we are 'macho' warmongers but rather we are realists who dont see the world through rose tinted specs.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero

    [This message has been edited by Balddog (edited 16-10-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    Stuey,

    BTW...You say that your BF was committed? I dont mean to sound rude but have you seen a professional yourself? Stabbing yourself because of a lovers tiff isnt something a right minded person does.

    I have actually been under a psychiatrist while recovering in hospital.

    I still can't believe the lust for killing you have.

    [This message has been edited by Stuey (edited 16-10-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I still can't believe the lust for killing you have.

    Where on earth do you come up with that? Ive never killed anyone in my life and I pray I never have to. Ive NEVER said killing was a good thing or a fun thing...It is however a NECESSARY thing.

    Tell me how you, as someone completely opposed to killing, would have dealt with Hitler...harsh words? There are some people on this earth that will always resort to violence, those people cant be reasoned with and the only option is to get rid of them.

    Wake up to the real world Stuey.

    "Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Stuey:
    I don't know how they feel, I just feel that anyone who can take another life will be haunted for the rest of their lives by the fact they killed someone in cold blood.


    If they can kill in "cold blood" then I doubt that they will be haunted by what they have done.

    If you kill whilst carring out your job then you may have guilt, getting the right help should sort that out.

    I hope you are getting help stuey because you still need it. This is not the place to talk about the traumas you have suffered. You could do this on more appropriate BB's. You are becoming less and less anonymous the more detail you give about yourself and the chances are you will get a lot of grief because of it. The details you have given about your life are easily checkable and WOULD give away your ID so be careful.

    peacechild

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I too do not WISH to kill, but I realise in a time of war I may be REQUIRED to kill, in order to protect something that is far more important that you or I.

    As for the ID thing, if you've been here as long as I have anonyminity goes out the window, you have no idea of the dodgy e-mails i have been sent during my time here!

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    REQUIRED TO KILL!!!!

    so if some organisation telly you

    'you are required to kill'
    You'd just take their word and do it!

    No-one can tell me I am required to kill.
    I think they'd be more likely to say 'you are required to fight' then when you get out into the real war and you have to face the fact that you havve killed someone you can make a huge claim for compensation to the government because you didn't quite realise the effect it would have on you.
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