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Israel and Palestine

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Here we go again - a Palestinian suicide bomber killed 13 Israelis, 5 of them children. This is in response to the several Palestinian assassinations by Israelis who assassinate Palestinians because the Palestinians are bombing them. Does anyone but me see the circular and foolishness of this cycle?

Whats worse is the news media portrayal of the Palestinians as "terrorists" and the Israelis as innocent victims in all of this. I'm the first to acknowledge that Arafat isn't winning any awards for the peace effort but for God's sake - if taking a helicopter gunship and firing rockets at a 'suspected' terrorist leader's car isn't a form of terrorism, then what is?

My point is, both sides are equally responsible for the killing and the continuation of this stupid conflict. Israel, for all her past troubles is bringing a lot of this on herself with the constant attacks on the Arabs and refusal to even compromise with them on the land they lost (among other things). Then theres Arafat - who denounces such violence but does little to prevent it from happening.

Either the 2 sides try and work this out or they should expect nothing short of total destruction. In any case, I don't want to see 3rd parties, be it American, European or otherwise supporting either side with troops or money (which is being talked about in America). This whole thing makes me sick.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    In any case, I don't want to see 3rd parties, be it American, European or otherwise supporting either side with troops or money (which is being talked about in America). This whole thing makes me sick.

    I agree with most of what you have said, except this last statement.

    The US does supply Israel with weaponry (M1-Abrahms for a start) and finance.

    If the US REALLY wanted peace and could withstand the jewish backlash within their own country then they would enforce the UN resolutions against Isreal with the same vigour that they did against Saddam.

    By the way, I am aware that I (as a Brit) have no moral high ground here. How did the state of Israel come about after the war?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    I agree with most of what you have said, except this last statement.

    The US does supply Israel with weaponry (M1-Abrahms for a start) and finance.

    If the US REALLY wanted peace and could withstand the jewish backlash within their own country then they would enforce the UN resolutions against Isreal with the same vigour that they did against Saddam.

    By the way, I am aware that I (as a Brit) have no moral high ground here. How did the state of Israel come about after the war?

    I totally agree that the US aids Israel in providing finance and weapons - I oppose this in the name of the cowardly assassinations Israel has carried out with these weapons. Unfortunately, in my country the news wont report the Palestinian side of the issue (the now infamous picture of the child and Red Cross worker killed by Israeli troops recieved only minimal exposure at best) and this creates heavy bias in the minds of Jewish Americans and non JAs alike. With this sentiment in mind, such sanctions would never pass (or make the reelection of any politician who got it through all but impossible).
    Im not siding with Arafat, but I do worry about our servicemen and women becoming involved in this conflict if Palestine ever got heavy (Saddam Hussein for one has voiced support for Palestine's movement). I can see no reason to support EITHER side in this conflict.

    As far as the state of Israel - Im very mixed in opinion. On the one hand, yes the Jews needed to have a homeland of some kind...how it was attained though definitely brings about questionable tactics...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its a terrible situation over there..Theres a level of guilt on both sides..I dont care how noble the cause, blowing up kids is not the way to go about things. Palestinians target kids deliberately and celebrate the fact after whereas Israel launches indiscriminate rocket attacks which do take out kids although not intentionally.

    There are horrific crimes committed by both sides and it looks like things are gonna get a lot worse before they get better. The situation is never going to end in peace while Arafat and Sharon are in charge.

    I tend to lean towards the Israelis in this situation..They agreed to 96% of the proposals put forward by the Palestinians. They have been willing to make concessions but Arafat hasnt agreed.

    In my opinion theres going to be a war very soon..I have a friend whos just been drafted into the IDF and the amount of hate on both sides is shocking..There will be a war, the arabs dont stand a chance against one of the best armies in the world..Israel will not hesitate to turn some of the other Arab states into glass if they get too heavily involved...If it flares up we are all in deep doo doo.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What I'm about to say is half in jest... but half deadly serious, too.

    If two kids called Israel and Palestine were fighting over a toy called Jerusalem, what would the parents do? I suspect something along the lines of knock the kids' heads together and take the toy away.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    What I'm about to say is half in jest... but half deadly serious, too.

    If two kids called Israel and Palestine were fighting over a toy called Jerusalem, what would the parents do? I suspect something along the lines of knock the kids' heads together and take the toy away.

    Who's the Daddy though?

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The reasons behind the conflict in the middle east are that Israel was formed to ensure a capitalist foothold in the middle east for western countries. This threatened the growing capitalist elements of Arabic countries.

    Enter into this dynamic a reactionary nationalism, racism and religious animosity, skilfully manipulated by political leaders, religious fanatics and vested capital interests on both sides. Zealots from Israel expounded Jewishness as a separate race and Islamic fundamentalists did the same. Both looked upon the other side with an irrational hatred. This reflected itself in continuous war, forced settlements by Israeli citizens, the evictions of Palestinian workers and the bulldozing of their homes, arrests and torture of those who fought back. Palestinians were swept up in terrorist activities, bombings and the reactionary Islamic fundamentalism of "Hamas". A sickening war ensued that shattered the lives of many.

    With the establishment of recognized "self-rule" in Palestine many hoped that things would be for the better. The first thing that Palestinian leaders did was to implement a standing police force and army not only to defend their border interests, but as a force to preserve capitalism's new gains against potential class clashes. Yet the violence continues.

    The political leaders of Israel and Arabic countries say that their choices are based on the vested interests of "the people". But The land, the factories, the oil - none is owned by "the people", but by a small elite who profit very well, safe, many miles away from the violence.

    The only solution to the war in the middle east is for the people there to set aside the reaction of nationalism, religious bigotry, ethnic hatred, racism and join together.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel was formed to ensure a capitalist foothold in the middle east for western countries

    No it wasnt..In case you hadnt noticed but Britain had a good many protectorates and holdings in the middle east. Palestine was under our control at the time.

    The jews had a pretty hard time of it in WW2, they wanted a country..they got one.
    The only solution to the war in the middle east is for the people there to set aside the reaction of nationalism, religious bigotry, ethnic hatred, racism and join together.

    Wow thats beautiful...If you can get them to do that then you have just solved ALL the worlds problems.

    Steelgate, may I ask how old you are? I only ask because you seem to hold some very interesting and naieve ideals.



    "An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, Isreal is not even the home of most of the worlds Jews. Most of the Jews live outside Israel. It is therefore of no benefit to the Jewish people of the world. Israel was only set up by western countries to ensure their dominance in the middle east after Palestine was granted independance, because the middle east has the worlds largest oil supplies. The biggest supporter of Israel is the United States which give massive amounts in aid to Israel every year.

    Socialists like me have always argued that the workers of all countries have more in common with each other than with those representing the interests of capital. The poor worker from Palestine and other Arabic countries face the same condition as the Israeli worker. Both are faced with the fundamental problem of capitalism which forces worker against worker not for their own interests, but for the interest of profit. The reall problem that is cuasing trouble in the middle east is capitalism.

    In fact the root cause of all wars in the world is capitalism, only when workers of the world join together to fight the reall enemy capitalism will the world be free of war.



    [This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 01-09-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is therefore of no benefit to the Jewish people of the world

    Tell that to the 6 million jews living there now. Tell that to the families of the jews who died to protect Israel.

    You are extremely cynical and deserving of a tin foil hat if you believe that Israel was only setup as a puppet state for the west in order to get access to oil...You dont think it would have been a better idea to set up Israel in an area that actually had a lot of oil? Far as im aware Israel isnt a major oil producer..Surely the evil imperialist dogs would have been better off setting up Israel in Iraq or somewhere like that?
    The poor worker from Palestine and other Arabic countries face the same condition as the Israeli worker

    rofl yea right..some people are more equal than others.
    In fact the root cause of all wars in the world is capitalism

    wow thats quite a statement...I guess it follows that there were no wars fought before the advent of capitalism then right?

    First we had an anarchist now we have a socialist..Both are as hopelessly naieve as each other. Grand ideals that dont take into account human nature.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Steelgate:
    It is therefore of no benefit to the Jewish people of the world.

    I take it you haven't taken logic in school, have you?

    In fact the root cause of all wars in the world is capitalism, only when workers of the world join together to fight the reall enemy capitalism will the world be free of war.

    Explain why the USSR, China, Cuba, and Vietnam have been involved in so many wars.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A quote from Steelgate

    "In fact the root cause of all wars in the world is capitalism, only when workers of the world join together to fight the reall enemy capitalism will the world be free of war."

    Which planet are you on ????

    peacechild



    And if I show you my dark side
    will you still hold me tonight
    and if I open my heart to you
    and show you my weak side
    what would you do
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you know how we can solve the situation in Israel???
    We should get a big bad nuke and drop it on Israel AND palestine. Presto, no more problem.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Steelgate, u missed something when u say that Israel is a country that exists because of us. Maybe so, but it doesnt destroy the fact that there are millions of people who now call Israel home!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean_K, the USSR, China, Cuba and Vietnam are or were state capitalist with planned economies not workers states. In those countries you had bosses who controlled the means of production. They therefore were not socialist, as a socialist society would have the means of production under democratic workers control. Like all capitalist countries they had imperialist ambitions and that was why they were involved in wars. Capitalism causes wars because it forces countries into economic competition with each other.

    Millions of people do call Israel home, but my point is that these people have more in common with the people of Palestine than their rulers. There will never be lasting peace in the middle east while the workers there are divided. The setting up of Israel did not benefit the world wide Jewish community at all. Israel is a capitalist state where workers are exploited, no different than any other capitalist state. There will only be lasting peace in the middle east once there is a united working class there. There is no other lasting solution.

    [This message has been edited by Steelgate (edited 01-09-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In other words, there is not, and never has been, a socialist state. A pipedream.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean_K, the USSR, China, Cuba and Vietnam are or were state capitalist with planned economies not workers states

    Wow you are the first person I have heard that denies the USSR was a communist/socialist state..Ok so please explain exactly how a worker controlled country would actually work? Exactly how would you get people to do the shitty jobs seeing as everyone is equal etc etc.

    Millions of people do call Israel home, but my point is that these people have more in common with the people of Palestine than their rulers

    I have a feeling the Israelis might just disagree with you on that one. I have never heard an Israeli complain that he was the victim of an overbearing capitalist imperial state.

    youre talkin crap mate.

    "An Englishman's never so natural as when he's holding his tongue." --Henry James
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In theory, communism is an exceptional form of government, what could be better than a world where everyone is equal, same pay for the same work e.t.c.
    Troulbe is it doesnt work like that, and never will. Ever seen George Owell's animal farm???
    All people are equal, just some are more equal than others.
    BEcause with a Communist state, you still need people to run things, in order to get a true eglatirian society running. However it will never get to this because the people involved with setting it up will inevitably become greedy.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Steelgate, get off your arse and go round some of these countries THEN come back and tell us all what you found.

    You are going to be fun, I knew it.

    peacechild
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Israelis are victims of capitalism, it is the workers there that are conscipted into the army to fight their rulers wars. It is the workers there who are exploited to produce profits for the bosses just like in any capitalist country.

    Under a socialist society people would have less work to do as goods would be produced for need and there fore there would be no need for extra work to produce profits. Their could be a job rotation system so that people don't have to do shitty jobs every day.

    Socialism is not a pipe dream. The belief in the continuation of capitalism is. Capitalism lurches from one crisis to another. Under capitalism there have been major economic slumps for example the recent economic collapse in east asia when he economies of south Korea and Indonesia collapsed and had to be bailed out by the world bank and IMF. And the 1929 stock market crash that threw millions into poverty. Plus all the wars that are caused by capitalism.

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