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So much for freedom of speech in America!

I remember a while ago we where discussing which country enjoyed the more liberties, Britain or the US. Some said the US actually had greater freedom of speech, protected by the First Amendment and so on.

Well that could well have been so in the past, but not any more in George W. Bush's America.

Teacher suspended after harsh criticism of George Bush
A HIGH-SCHOOL geography teacher in Colorado has been put on leave after a 16-year-old pupil recorded him comparing George Bush to Hitler.
Sean Allen, 16, who attends a suburban high school outside Denver, has made headlines across the country by recording the teacher lambasting President Bush.

“Sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say,” Jay Bennish told his class. “We’re the only ones who are right, everyone else is backward and our job is to conquer the world.”

Mr Bennish called the US “probably the single most violent nation on Earth”, saying that it had committed more than 7,000 “terrorist sabotage acts” against Cuba. But he told pupils that they were free to disagree with him.


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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isnt strictly about free speach though is it, its about teachers, politics and potentially easily influenced students.

    If this was a teacher suggesting to students that evolution was a lie, would your opinion be the same?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting, not surprising in any way - there have been other examples including criticism of school sponsors etc. It will be interesting to see what he does now, because that [IMHO] is a clear breach of his rights.

    Not that I really want to detract, but considering your stance on teachers with BNP connections I have to say that this is the kind of example I was talking about when that issue arose. If you are happy for a BNP member to be sacked, even where he never vocalises his views to his pupils, then you cannot complain when the same thing happens to someone who holds the same views as you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, I would say as I've done before that BNP (i.e. fascist/racist views) fall outside standard rules. They are an abomination and steps should be taken to ensure no vulnerable people are brainwashed with them.

    Mainstream political views, be left or right, are an entirely different issue.

    16 year olds are also rather different to young kids.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But most people would consider comparing Bush to Hitler outside the normal political 'mainstream'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mainstream is no different. It's still just a viewpoint.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    But most people would consider comparing Bush to Hitler outside the normal political 'mainstream'.
    He didn't exactly say Bush was as bad as Hitler or that he was a racist lunatic responsible for the deaths of more than 6 million people though. He said some of his policies have many similarities with the Nazi regime- and that is a very valid point, and not at all extreme.

    The only consideration I would make is whether the school in question has a strict zero tolerance policy towards teachers making political or current affairs comments. But somehow I think if the teacher had said the US government was right to invade Iraq or to keep the boycott against Cuba running he would not have been suspended... :rolleyes:

    McCarthyism is alive and well in the US of A, 2006.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    McCarthyism is alive and well in the US of A, 2006.

    It certainly seems that way..

    It's not all that important, but I'm kind of wondering why the student had a recording device. I'm dreaming up this scenario in which the teacher said something similar (or anti-Bush) before and the enraged pupil went home and decided he would get evidence of this. That said, it's equally possible that he'd just got a mobile phone with recording capabilities or similar so he could record his own belches. Great way to get your name in the papers/revenge on a teacher though, maybe he'll get invited to brunch at the White House. :rolleyes:

    Either way, the thing that worries me about the diminishment of freedom of speech in the US is the way other US citizens are so eager to bring their countrymen down (for want of a better word) for saying something vaguely controversial or even questioning authority and the administration. It's a sad reflection, imo.

    How can I write a fan letter to Mr Bennish? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I think the comparision of Bush to Hitler is over exaggerated and harsh but not really a suspension offense.

    However 2 things seem to negate that idea, or at leats impact on it.

    One is the comaprasion was to Hitler. People are very funy about Hitler and and WW2 and such. I mean look at the whoo ha over harry dressing as a nazi and david Irving being jailed over his denial of the holocaust. So its hardly an isolated incident.

    Plus being America, they are strict about what they teach in shcools. The whole evolution thing being the example so it doesn't surprise me and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have some legally binding legislation to legitimise it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The kid was put up to it by his Republican father.

    Sounds to me like the teacher's getting a harsh deal, especially since he and his family are now receiving a lot of death threats from outraged yokels.

    His remarks were taken out of context - the next thing he said after “Sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say, we’re the only ones who are right, everyone else is backward and our job is to conquer the world.” was "Now I'm not saying that Bush and Hitler are exactly the same. Obviously, they're not. But there's some eerie similarities to the tones that they use."

    I don't see how you could teach history to kids without putting things into some kind of context - he told his students they were free to disagree, so what's wrong with making them think a little? They're 16, plenty old enough to have their own opinions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    This isnt strictly about free speach though is it, its about teachers, politics and potentially easily influenced students.

    If this was a teacher suggesting to students that evolution was a lie, would your opinion be the same?


    ah ive read on this case in particular


    in the recording the student made, the teacher explicitly says, 'this is only my opinion on things and you can disagree with me you know'

    thus he should not have been suspended
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think it was right for the teacher to say that his class...i mean he is a geography teacher. If he was a social studies or politics teacher i would be all for that kind of comments, starting a debate, etc. But he teaches geography...?

    Apart from that, i dont see a big deal, not like he commited slander, he made a fair political comparison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair, just because a teacher says - 'this is just my opinion' doesn't abrogate their responsibility. I don't agree with the decision in this case but if a teacher said;

    'All you black kids are inferior, you girls shouldn't be allowed an education, all the jews here should die and all muslims are evil - now this is only my opinion on things and you can disagree with me you know'

    Then I'm sure there would be a massive outcry against that teacher and demands he was sacked.

    So it doesn't seem clear cut - where should the line be drawn on what a teacher can say?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote:
    It certainly seems that way..

    It's not all that important, but I'm kind of wondering why the student had a recording device. I'm dreaming up this scenario in which the teacher said something similar (or anti-Bush) before and the enraged pupil went home and decided he would get evidence of this. That said, it's equally possible that he'd just got a mobile phone with recording capabilities or similar so he could record his own belches. Great way to get your name in the papers/revenge on a teacher though, maybe he'll get invited to brunch at the White House. :rolleyes:


    An alumnus group at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) caused an uproar by offering a $100 (£57) bounty for taped evidence of professors’ radical rants.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the thing why i find this suspension stupid is that i think he wouldnt be suspended if he was spouting that mr bush is a lovely man and thus is actually just stifling freedom of speech
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    So it doesn't seem clear cut - where should the line be drawn on what a teacher can say?

    I don't think a teacher should be going around denigrating groups of people to their classes - so if the teacher had gone as far as saying "All you students with parents who voted Republican come from stupid families", that would have been going to far.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair..

    ..Hitler was a good speaker, I mean he motivated, and mobilised. He was a master of mass psychology and with his words brought germany to the brink of super powerdom and world domination.

    I mean I know he is a bad guy, evil and all that business but its an impressive achievement just on that scale. No one could deny that the guy could talk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the thing why i find this suspension stupid is that i think he wouldnt be suspended if he was spouting that mr bush is a lovely man and thus is actually just stifling freedom of speech
    No of course he would not be suspended.

    Crossing the line or departing from your duty appears to be okay so long as you remain 'on message' with the Republican movement and the US government.

    Don't be subversive though, or the rules will suddenly apply and you'll be in trouble.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, Hitler sure could carry a monologue...unlike monkey man G. W. Bush!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    haha!! True.

    the times he stumbles and fucks up his words is unreal!!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing surprising here really. America showing it's ultra-patriotic roots as per usual.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    turlough wrote:
    Nothing surprising here really. America showing it's ultra-patriotic roots as per usual.

    Sadly so. It's a bit fucking crap, I could record many things, especailly in my government and politics classes... worse than that!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4785574.stm

    So I assume Aladdin you'll be defending the right of this lecturer?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Freedom of speech! Lets not forget the 80yr old Nazi holocaust survivor who just happened to shout "rubbish" at the last Labour conference and was immediately and aggressively hauled from the hall by a couple of 20st bruisers!
    You're not allowed to disagree with New Labour, or even think of disagreeing, or else the Stasi-like Thought Police will call.
    This government is the most repressive since WW2, our freedoms of association and of speech are being taken from us. Remember the young woman who was hauled off by 14 Police officers just for reading the names of the British service personnel killed in Iraq - Blair & Gangs little illegal escapade that was based on a tissue of lies & deceit, the staple tools of this evil corrupt and immoral government.

    "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
    - - - Harry S Truman, August 8, 1950
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4785574.stm
    So I assume Aladdin you'll be defending the right of this lecturer?
    Well, I did a thread about this here and I notice Aladdin was distinctly quiet... ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I remember a while ago we where discussing which country enjoyed the more liberties, Britain or the US. Some said the US actually had greater freedom of speech, protected by the First Amendment and so on.

    Well that could well have been so in the past, but not any more in George W. Bush's America.

    Teacher suspended after harsh criticism of George Bush
    I am completely for freedom of speech, even for the BNP and National Front but only to the point where it incites violence...

    However, spouting your political views in an academic institution to impressionable youths shouldn't be allowed, school is for learning facts and preparing them to be a worker... Whether you agree with the system or not I don't think that it is appropriate for school personally.

    As for what he said about George Bush and Hitler... I wouldn't want my kids learning from a teacher like that... If he had actually ever logged on to a human rights website or read some books I'm sure he'd find tha America is probably heaven to live in compared to Sudan, Myanmar or Iraq...

    I am not excusing however anything that America has done.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Well, I did a thread about this here and I notice Aladdin was distinctly quiet... ;)
    Freedom of speech suits most people until they don't like what has been said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am completely for freedom of speech, even for the BNP and National Front but only to the point where it incites violence...
    Then it ain't "free speech" - simple really.
    You can't even shout "rubbish" at a Labour party conference or read out the names of the British war dead in Iraq. Free speech has long gone, helped on its way by Political Correctness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    About this thread... comparing George W. Bush to Adolf Hitler is utterly bananas. Hitler was responsible for the deaths of millions. This is the man who tried to wipe out a whole race of people. Hitler is the most evil dictator the world has ever known, so to try and compare him with Bush is preposterous. But should the teacher have been sacked? No.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Hitler is the most evil dictator the world has ever known

    Stalin was worse tbh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its a pointless exercise trying to justify Stalin being more evil than Hitler - lets move into the 21st century, what about the many evil dictators of the African continent?
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