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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The true purpose of the second ammendment is to be able to fight tyrrany in government should it ever come to it. Would a scenario like that ever occur? Hopefully not, but the mere fact that the population is armed is a large deterrent to those who would try. Here in America the power is inherent to the people, not the government. When the populace is disarmed the government increasingly becomes more bold and controlling. Has anyone here ever read The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli? If not I would suggest you do so. Written in 1505 it shows that the same basic truths of man and politics have not changed over the years. Take this quote for example:

    "Rome and Sparta were for many centuries well-armed and free. The Swiss are well-armed and enjoy great freedom. Among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible. "

    An armed populace will remain free and strong while the unarmed will eventually take a lesser position and suffer accordingly. The phrase "those who beat their swords into plows shall plow for those who don't" comes to mind.
    Another fine reason for the populace to be armed is that it greatly helps in those terrible times when we must fight war for the sake of keeping our freedom as well as the worlds. Americans for many generations have directly transferred their knowledge of shooting and hunting directly to the battlefield with fine results. In our American Revolution King George III was faced not with a well drilled professional army, but fathers and sons who spent their days honing their skills on squirrel and deer. Same with both world wars. The American rifleman has always risen to the occasion due to his familiarity with weapons and shooting in general. The reasons for violence does not lie with firearms, but in the hearts of evil men.


    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    Benjamin Franklin
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh, I also find it quite humorous to be lectured on the evils of gun violence from a country that thinks beating people senseless at soccer (football) games is a national pasttime.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    Benjamin Franklin
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    Another reason to concentrate on the building of a true civilisation as opposed to just a country with an armed population.

    Does the thought of Government oppression and tyranny weigh that heavily on the average American mind??

    Our Government here has tried a few times to implement laws that were entirely unpopular with the general population, one example is the controversial Poll Tax. This saw mass rioting as the population expressed it's extreme displeasure, I know many were injured but at least none were shot.

    Only users lose drugs
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The IRA are the best example against gun control you english can look to. (Gun control is also accepted here if it means hitting what you are shooting at!)

    The IRA refuses to stand down and does not even make a pretense at turning over its weapons...the question has been asked and answered right in your own back yard.

    The IRA will be able to win against england because of this attitude...not in spite of it. And when the war is won the will not disarm then either...they already consider such an act treason.

    As an aside, I really can't help but wonder how many weapons are taken away from the english by the IRA each year to resupply what they can't buy locally.

    We, US, having heard all the arguments from the british about the IRA being criminals, etc., you must wonder why they are still admired in the US as freedom fighters...FF that have greatly damaged the tourist industry of britan.

    Diesel

    88888888
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    Diesel you really do have a fascination with the IRA don't you??

    Some of the weaponary the IRA uses comes direct from the unlicensed pool of weapons at large in the USA, American weapons are killing British citizens.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A friend having trouble geting on this board ask me to post this for you.

    Originally posted by Lord of Little:
    Another reason to concentrate on the building of a true civilisation as opposed to just a country with an armed population.
    Does the thought of Government oppression and tyranny weigh that heavily on the average American mind??

    Our Government here has tried a few times to implement laws that were entirely unpopular with the general population, one example is the controversial Poll Tax. This saw mass rioting as the population expressed it's extreme displeasure, I know many were injured but at least none were shot.


    The citizens of the US are too civilized to riot over controversial taxes. This is because we tell the Government what to do. The citizens have the power over the Government by the Rights guaranteed by our Constitution and ultimately, the Bill of Rights. We prevent such tyranny with these Rights that are granted with our Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press to spread the word of tyranny. Freedom from secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, and most of all, prevent the tyranny of the Government by force with our arms should the Government attempts to impress it's will upon the citizens without our consent.

    The biggest difference between the Unites States and Britain is the US citizen tell their Government what is to be done. We overthrow the Government every two to four years, and replace the officials who do not do our will, whereas the British subject does what he or she is told, and has to result to uncivilized violence, destroying their own property if the Government impresses it's will on them. There are no redress for the subjects of England.


  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif"&gt; u make it sound as though we never just had a general election....

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tdo13.gif"&gt;
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    The biggest difference between the Unites States and Britain is the US citizen tell their Government what is to be done. We overthrow the Government every two to four years, and replace the officials who do not do our will, whereas the British subject does what he or she is told, and has to result to uncivilized violence, destroying their own property if the Government impresses it's will on them. There are no redress for the subjects of England.

    Oh, FFS stop being so silly. We Brits 'overthrow' our governments, local and national, on a regular basis, too.

    D, you really need to read a little about the constitutional structure of the UK before you start slagging it off.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit:

    "OK then, give me the truth....
    Having a rifle wont save you from anything, and, if anything, will make things worse. Colombine, Dunblane....need any more egs? Owning a gun isnt freedom, its imprisonment...and when the Government comes calling, a toy aint gonna save ur skin.
    "

    That's exactly what Hitler told the Jews Kermit!
    (Good thing the Jews didn't have guns right Kermit?)
    PPS- Guess why you ain't speaking Deutsch
    right now Kermit, or dead if you're Jewish, or
    "sub-human?"

    That's right, Redneck American Yahoos with guns,
    saved your asses, sure am glad to see the
    appreciation.

    And btw, grow up and just use ONE identity- if u wanna serious debate, then ur welcome, but stop playing silly buggers.

    Huh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh I forgot to ask Kermit-

    How many Swiss were killed in WWII?

    It must have been a bloodbath, what with each
    and every Swiss man keeping a dangerous
    "Assault Rifle" in their house-?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really dont know alot about why the IRA is fighting the british government but I read somewhere that it has something to do with the british not allowing them to represent themselfs in the government.I dont know but from what Ive read/heard I agree with what the IRA is doing at least partialy.I dont agree with any harming of innocents or persons not involved but that always happens in war.

    If we passed some "turn in your guns or keep em at a shooting club" law I would take my guns alot of supplies and take off into the woods far out in the west or alaska and hardly interact with soceity.If they came and tried to take my guns out there I would further retreat untill I couldnt no more then I would die fighting them off or if a revolution occured (which is probably what would happen if we passed something like this)I would join a local militia and fight the enemy.But as of this time all that I have said is hypothetical.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    Oh I forgot to ask Kermit-

    How many Swiss were killed in WWII?

    It must have been a bloodbath, what with each
    and every Swiss man keeping a dangerous
    "Assault Rifle" in their house-?

    Impress me and tell me where Herts is. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif"&gt;

    Switzerland (correct me if Im wrong) was NEUTRAL in WW2! Guns didnt stop the Nazis in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, France and the Sudetenland did they? The fact is an AK47 aint gonna stop a Government hell bent on destruction, and aint gonna stop robberies either. Guns dont stop carjackings in South Africa do they?

    And thought for the day: would the Jews have stopped Hitler even if they WERE armed. No, I didnt think so either.

    One more thing: the IRA the Americans seem to love are terrorists like the OKlahoma City bomber, not freedom fighters. They say they want independence from the UK, and are NOT excluded form Government- there are two Sinn Fein MPs, and many more in the Irish Assembly.

    Just as lungs sucking on air,
    Survival's natural as sorrow.

    [This message has been edited by Kermit (edited 20-07-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are many who see the OKC bomber as a Patriot Soldier, or, Phinneas Priest.

    He did retaliate against the government for what was done to citizens at Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc., and he expressed no shame, no regret and certainly no apology...dying, looking the enemey in the eye without remorse.

    McVeigh...ain't that an Irish name?

    Diesel

    88888888
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do I think this is going to be like pulling teeth?
    Originally posted by Kermit:
    Impress me and tell me where Herts is. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif"&gt;

    Well let's see, have you ever heard of Essex?

    Switzerland (correct me if Im wrong) was NEUTRAL in WW2! Guns didnt stop the Nazis in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, France and the Sudetenland did they?

    Of course not Jimmy,
    In and of themselves guns can't stop Toni Blair from lying, or stop his own son from binge drinking, they couldn't stop--- anyway,

    you don't find it at all noteworthy that the
    overrun/anschlussed countries you mentioned had
    no armed citizenry to back up the Army?
    The rather thin army wouldn't you say WRT Poland and Czech?
    Only weapons in the hands of men willing to fight
    ever held invaders at bay. (also tyrants)
    Notice tiny Finland almost held off the Red Army. (Armed citizens militia~~ Am I getting through?)

    How do you think Swiss maintained her neutrality?
    Do you think having every Swiss man armed for war
    and ready to fight had something to do with it.
    HINT- Lot's of European countries declared themselves "neutrals",
    but you have to convince the likes of Stalin
    and Hitler with more forceful arguments, or
    you find yourself an "once neutral now occupied territory"

    The fact is an AK47 aint gonna stop a Government hell bent on destruction, and aint gonna stop robberies either. Guns dont stop carjackings in South Africa do they?

    You've never heard of Bernard Goetz have you?
    He single handedly stopped the out-of-control
    crime in NYC for two weeks. (He blew away four
    robbers) When the police captured Goetz,
    criminals, once again safe, returned to their
    predatory ways.

    Plus, I know one farmer in Britain named "Martin"
    isn't it, who single handedly put a crime-spree
    'to it's everlasting conclusion (12 gauge no?)
    Of course he was jailed for his efforts by
    slave-minded zombie British Jurors.

    And thought for the day: would the Jews have stopped Hitler even if they WERE armed. No, I didnt think so either.

    Once again your ignorance of European History
    is amazing. (Never heard of Warsaw have we hm?)

    One more thing: the IRA the Americans seem to love are terrorists like the OKlahoma City bomber, not freedom fighters. They say they want independence from the UK, and are NOT excluded form Government- there are two Sinn Fein MPs, and many more in the Irish Assembly.


    I'm not going to win the hearts and minds of
    Britons by discussing the IRA with you.

    But think about this-
    You've been lied to about your own heritage,
    and about the free American gun culture,
    all your lives, with overwhelming propaganda,
    I'm just giving you a little bit of the truth.
    How does it taste?

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well Jesus tap-dancing Christ bat man ..... If Kermit doesn't think we can do it , we might as well throw down our guns now surrender ! <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif"&gt;
    Originally posted by Kermit:
    The fact is an AK47 aint gonna stop a Government hell bent on destruction, and aint gonna stop robberies either. Guns dont stop carjackings in South Africa do they?

    The bill of rights.
    Unless you read it you never know what your missing .

    [This message has been edited by BillofRights (edited 22-07-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by BillofRights (edited 22-07-2001).]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    Well since I can't edit my post , and change out to our I thought I would correct it here before someone gets sand in their pants . <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif"&gt;

    I have edited my last post 3 times to try to change that , and each time it tells me Thank you for editing my post but it dose not change . Any one got any idea what could be wrong ?

    Thanks:BillofRights

    Well Jesus tap-dancing Christ bat man ..... If Kermit doesn't think it can be done we might as well throw down out guns now surrender !

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BillofRights:
    Well Jesus tap-dancing Christ bat man ..... If Kermit doesn't think we can do it , we might as well throw down our guns now surrender

    do what exactly? take on the world with a pistol? you can take a tank and you still wouldn't get anywhere. you could even launch a nuke and you'd end up dying with everyone else

    warfare is no longer an issue since the introduction of biochemical and nuclear weapons. everyone knows MAD (mutually assured destruction) would occur and so people look for disarmaments rather than better weapons.


    Playing with fire will ultimately see you burnt <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/ukliam2.gif"&gt;
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is really quite a fascinating topic; it just took me half an hour to read and I'm very impressed by the reasoned arguments from both sides.

    Certainly I see that guns are useful for defence.

    But defence against what?

    Last time I looked America was full of normal people leading normal lives who, to be honest, don't want to revolt against their government. Okay, so every government makes mistakes and every government has its enemies - we're all only human, after all - but terrorists aren't able to overthrow the White House. They can make it wobble, perhaps, but deep down nobody wants to have to bother! It's human nature.

    An American is allowed guns for defence or as a hobby. Not a problem. The disaster comes when someone decided that the easiest way to get out of an awkward situation is to kill someone with those guns.

    Over here criminals are very rarely armed. It's so rare that there's a special police unit, SO19, for dealing with armed criminals. Your average bobby on the beat doesn't carry a gun at all. When someone breaks into a house, the resident will call the police. Even if the burglar is armed, they won't automatically shoot the resident - again, human nature and also upbringing: killing is bad, hurting other people is bad. It honestly doesn't happen often unless the criminal is mentally disturbed.

    In the USA there are far more gun massacres than here in the UK. I can think of one in the UK in the last decade and that's Dunblane (if there've been more than that, oops, but my point still stands). In the USA last year there were at least two occasions when a group of high school teenagers decided to get some guns and randomly shoot lots of their schoolmates. Does this mean they were brought up to believe that there's nothing wrong with violence? Perhaps, perhaps not. In any case, it's very, very disturbing.

    The chances of the UK being invaded are minuscule. Last time that succeeded was in 1066, but I won't bore everyone with Year 7 history!

    As a nation, we feel safe in the hands of our government and we don't feel the need to have guns, for defence or any other reason. If the citizens of the USA do, what does that say about the ethos of your country?

    Don't get me wrong, there are thousands of beautiful places and lovely people in the USA, but (I think) all your policemen are armed and many of the people own guns. If I was walking down a street in, say, Phoenix, that would scare me. So much so I'm not sure I ever want to go there.

    Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
    - Anon
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MasterDevilish:
    do what exactly? take on the world with a pistol? you can take a tank and you still wouldn't get anywhere. you could even launch a nuke and you'd end up dying with everyone else

    warfare is no longer an issue since the introduction of biochemical and nuclear weapons. everyone knows MAD (mutually assured destruction) would occur and so people look for disarmaments rather than better weapons.

    You're too far gone to help MD.
    You just dwell in your little fearful world,
    surrender, disarm, and may your chains set
    lightly upon you.
    Americans however,
    will remain armed, free, as the Founding Fathers
    taught.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh boy,~
    Originally posted by *~stellar~*:
    This is really quite a fascinating topic; it just took me half an hour to read and I'm very impressed by the reasoned arguments from both sides.

    Certainly I see that guns are useful for defence.

    But defence against what?

    you have not read the book,
    "The Rape of Nanking" have you?
    The Chinese army fled, retreating
    from Nanking, leaving the civilians
    and (some) surrendered soldiers behind
    to be slaughtered, and slaughtered they were.
    You have to read the book, to see how helpess
    unarmed people are, when faced with -ARMED-
    killers, llike the Japanese for example.
    Read the book, you might get some idea.

    I also provide this link to describe
    a few events which happened in recent
    US history:
    http://www.fresnobee.com/print/storynews/0,1737,189108.html,00.html

    This is an incomplete report of the
    "pitchfork murder case".
    An -flipped out?- man broke into
    a family home in California, bagan
    stabbing the children in the house
    with a pitchfork, killing two.
    The teenage daughter was trainedin
    firearms use by her father, but the
    father had locked up the gun/guns,
    following Ca.' "safe storage law".

    She was therefore helpless to defend
    her younger siblings. In America stories
    like this are not uncommon, but they are
    always spiked/amd/or downplayed by the
    media. When somebody shoots up a school
    however it's international news for days.
    (this yo know)

    REad these links:
    http://www.codyexpress.com/younguns/roundup.htm

    And this is the most egregious story
    you (and most Americans) have never heard:
    It's referred to as the "wichita horror"

    Two criminals broke into a house in Kansas,
    robbed, kidnapped, raped and killed 4 people,
    leaving one for dead, who lived to tell
    teh tale. Never heard about this one huh?
    (Major madia-blackout on this one)
    If the victims had had just one gun,
    it ~COULD~ have been a simple story of:
    "Two robbers shot dead in Kansas,
    homeowners in big trouble" (Martin?)

    Read the story: http://www.frontpagemag.com/pi_crimes/rubush01-12-01.htm
    http://www.metrovoicenews.com/views/cashill/cashill020101.html
    http://www.jeffsarchive.com/hate%20crime/wichita/Kidnappings%20and%20Killings%20in%20Northeast%20Wichita.html

    Last time I looked America was full of normal people leading normal lives who, to be honest, don't want to revolt against their government. Okay, so every government makes mistakes and every government has its enemies - we're all only human, after all - but terrorists aren't able to overthrow the White House. They can make it wobble, perhaps, but deep down nobody wants to have to bother! It's human nature.

    An American is allowed guns for defence or as a hobby. Not a problem. The disaster comes when someone decided that the easiest way to get out of an awkward situation is to kill someone with those guns.

    (?????)

    Over here criminals are very rarely armed. It's so rare that there's a special police unit, SO19, for dealing with armed criminals. Your average bobby on the beat doesn't carry a gun at all. When someone breaks into a house, the resident will call the police. Even if the burglar is armed, they won't automatically shoot the resident - again, human nature and also upbringing: killing is bad, hurting other people is bad. It honestly doesn't happen often unless the criminal is mentally disturbed.

    Many Americans believe what you said above
    too, many have never heard of the Wichita Horror.

    In the USA there are far more gun massacres than here in the UK. I can think of one in the UK in the last decade and that's Dunblane (if there've been more than that, oops, but my point still stands). In the USA last year there were at least two occasions when a group of high school teenagers decided to get some guns and randomly shoot lots of their schoolmates. Does this mean they were brought up to believe that there's nothing wrong with violence? Perhaps, perhaps not. In any case, it's very, very disturbing.

    No matter where you go,
    there's gonna be wackos.
    In Israel, every school has armed teachers,
    armed parent volunteer guards, and I want'
    you to guess how many Israelli students have
    been shot in school in the last 20 years,
    since they implementsed teh armed teacher/parent
    policy?

    The chances of the UK being invaded are minuscule. Last time that succeeded was in 1066, but I won't bore everyone with Year 7 history!

    As a nation, we feel safe in the hands of our government and we don't feel the need to have guns, for defence or any other reason.

    Funny, that's exactlyl what the Jews said,they were about as well conditionad as you.
    I';m not saying this WILL happen to you.
    But what is your ABSOLUTE guarantee?
    (I've got mine)
    BTW the Jews in Weimar Germany were among
    the leaders of the effort to ban and register
    guns there. Pretty good idea huh?{b}


    If the citizens of the USA do, what does that say about the ethos of your country?

    I guess it means the spirit of freedoom
    is alive within us.
    (BTW we are expecting UN-Blue Helmets any
    time now to come over and help us "disarm"
    for our safety and security.)
    We shall meet them "on the ground."

    Don't get me wrong, there are thousands of beautiful places and lovely people in the USA, but (I think) all your policemen are armed and many of the people own guns. If I was walking down a street in, say, Phoenix, that would scare me. So much so I'm not sure I ever want to go there.

    Maybe not Phoenix,
    but if you walked through Arizona,
    you might see many free ctizens of that fine
    state bearing arms.
    I would feel very safe with them, much safer
    than I would feal with, say, the Italian
    caribeneria.

    But you don't have to go there if you dpon't
    want to.
    I rather hope you don't
    If you did, youi might meat and marry someone there, and vote, and raise little
    fearful COmmunis Children who would vote
    for a Toni Blair type Tyrant.
    That would be a shame.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    You're too far gone to help MD.
    You just dwell in your little fearful world,
    surrender, disarm, and may your chains set
    lightly upon you.
    Americans however,
    will remain armed, free, as the Founding Fathers
    taught.

    right....whereas ur all armed, scared someone's gonna "pop a cap in ur ass" and live in fear of walking around without your trusty weapon banging against ur holder...

    but wait, what's this - guy shot you. you're dead instantly...and dont have time to retaliate

    yeah, well it was nice knowing u <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    oops, i lie <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    then theres me...along with the rest of the world...who have decided to live in peace. embrace each other, freely chat in the street without thinking theres a laser sight against your forhead and can sit in a coffee shop without worrying about that tick tock noise...

    ur pretty thick, u know that?



    Playing with fire will ultimately see you burnt <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/ukliam2.gif"&gt;
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For some reason the computer won't let me quote your whole post, so excuse me if I miss anything.

    Firstly, no, I have not read The Rape of Nanking, although if it's won any literary prizes I'd love to. I have heard of the event, and naturally I think it's atrocious. I'm not sure that the end result would have been much different if the citizens had been armed, but I think I faintly agree with you on this point.

    I've just read your other post about the pitchfork murders and the Wichita horror. The perpetrators were definitely mentally disturbed. But events like these, horrible though they are, are rare. The common good (oh dear, getting really political now!) is sometimes what must be addressed - you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. This sounds terribly callous and I don't like saying it, but it's true in my opinion.

    I imagine no Israeli students have been shot in school in the past ten years. With the exception of the Dunblane massacre the same applies to the UK. It does not apply to America, unless I make a rather large number of exceptions.

    As for your idea that I might "meat" someone from Arizona and raise Communist children - okay, this might start getting personal! Where did you get the idea that I was a Communist? I'm not entirely sure what the Communist party is anyway, I just know that they were something big in the 60s, 70s and 80s and that the Cold War was something to do with them. Or maybe not. Dunno! Tony Blair, a tyrant? He's got four children and his hair is floppy. Need I go on <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif"&gt; ! ohhhhh my god, this is so funny!

    Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
    - Anon
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Your last post is excellent evidence of the
    conditioning you've recieved. (brainwshing)

    ie: Your national media and education system
    portray lawful, armed, peaceful Americans,
    as:
    all armed, scared someone's gonna "pop a cap in ur ass" and live in fear of walking around without your trusty weapon banging against ur holder...

    living in fear? seriously, where do you get this?
    (We certainly aren't 'living in fear', or
    however we are porteayed by your lying,
    propaganda organs)

    but wait, what's this - guy shot you. you're dead instantly...and dont have time to retaliate

    yeah, well it was nice knowing u <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    oops, i lie <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    OK I'll just skip this-?

    then theres me...along with the rest of the world...who have decided to live in peace. embrace each other, freely chat in the street without thinking theres a laser sight against your forhead and can sit in a coffee shop without worrying about that tick tock noise...

    ur pretty thick, u know that?


    Hey, here's a hint:
    We freely walk, embrace, chat, all that
    fun stuff.

    Only slight difference is, when criminals
    break into our houses to rob/rape/kill us,
    WE KILL THEM!! (insert fun smiley here)

    Chances are, over a lifetime, you will be victimized
    once or twice.

    I don't want to die on that day, just because
    some nimrod thinks killing me might be 'fun.'

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by *~stellar~*:
    For some reason the computer won't let me quote your whole post, so excuse me if I miss anything.

    Firstly, no, I have not read The Rape of Nanking, although if it's won any literary prizes I'd love to. I have heard of the event, and naturally I think it's atrocious. I'm not sure that the end result would have been much different if the citizens had been armed,
    I can only ask again,
    How many Swiss were massacred in WWII?
    (With every Swiss Man owning a rifle and all?)
    but I think I faintly agree with you on this point.Well there's something.

    I've just read your other post about the pitchfork murders and the Wichita horror. The perpetrators were definitely mentally disturbed. But events like these, horrible though they are, are rare. The common good (oh dear, getting really political now!) is sometimes what must be addressed - you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. This sounds terribly callous and I don't like saying it, but it's true in my opinion.

    If you are a murderer's advocate, there's not
    really much else for us to discuss,
    the conditioning has gone too far.

    But just to tell you how I feel, a quote:
    "He who does not take care of his own family is
    worse than the non-believer."
    Murder is a sin.
    I'm against it.

    I imagine no Israeli students have been shot in school in the past ten years.

    NO I said 20 years, (20 years)
    It's been twenty years since Isael armed thier
    teachers and started armed parents patrols in
    their schools. (Zero shooting deaths since)

    During those past 20 years, American students
    have been shot-up it's true-
    AND it's because our schools are
    "GUN_FREE_EASY_SHOOTIN_GUARANTEED_HELPLESS_VICTIM_ZONES".

    Wackos know they will find easy, unguarded targets
    that don;t shoot back at schools in USA.
    (also unarmed teachers, principles, etc etc)
    90% of our mass-shooting occur in zones where
    guns are prohibbitted entirely (Like schools),
    or in states which severly restrict the right to
    keep and bear arms, like California.

    (In those 20 years you have experienced
    Dunblane no?, and Japan has experienced
    more and more violent, and deadly knife
    attacks in schools, USA schools you know about too)


    As for your idea that I might "meat" someone from Arizona and raise Communist children - okay, this might start getting personal! Where did you get the idea that I was a Communist? .............[/IMG] ! ohhhhh my god, this is so funny!
    [/B]

    OK I got carried away,
    I should say, if someone with your opinions,
    who favors letting murderers and rapists prey
    on a disarmed society, because, "you must break
    a few omeletes, for the public good" (approx),
    if you did stay in Arizona, because of the low
    crime rate, nice hot, dry weather, (if that's
    your taste) and high level of individual freedom
    in that state, you join the voting public,
    and vote out those freedom loving statesmen
    currently running AZ, and vote in "socialists' (can I say Blair is a socialist?)
    Like My Fuzzy hair, and begin the process of
    disarming by lawful, and formerly free citizens
    of AZ, and crime and taxes would go up,
    while liberty waned, as it is doing in the UK.
    That would be a shame.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Baldog. The reason that few Swiss we killed in WW2 was because their country wasn't invaded. This isn't becuase their polulation was armed but because they didn't have any of the natural resources that Hitler wanted and because they weren't in between him and the coutries that did.

    How many Germans/Russians/British/Polish/French/Dutch soldiers died? With most of them having guns and all.

    You are right - "Murder is a sin", in fact killing anyone is a sin according to the ten commandments (note: there are NO amendments to the commandments). It doesn't say - Thou shalt not kill. Unless someone is in your house - does it?

    Okay so Israelis don't get shot at school. They do get shot GOING to school. They also shoot unarmed palestinians (and vice versa). It's called a warzone, and funnily enough guns are involved.

    "you must break a few eggs..."

    This is something that you advocate too. Innocent deaths partially caused by guns are okay because we retain the right to HAVE those guns, is what you argue. Those innocent deaths are the broken eggs in your case.

    Oh, as for crime stats - how long has you crime rate been going down. Remember that you have had the right to bear arms for 200 years now...

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A bloody interesting post.
    Well, there are many points I could make, but due to the lack of time I have, and the abundance of wine within my skin, I wont.
    The basic facts are:
    Americans love the fact that they can hold arms.
    British people love the fact that people cant legaly hold arms here.
    Okay, if everyone here could have a gun, noone would bother holding you up with a bat or a knife, they would point a gun at u. Hmm, a little more scary I think.
    If someone was breaking into your house they would more litley have a gun with them if it was U.S.A. than if it was in Britain. I would prefer to defend myself with my fists against fists than have a gun battle.
    BUT...............
    I can see the American point about having guns incase their goverment ever goes nuts and starts to abuse the common man. It's jst tht some of their countrymen cant be trusted with firearms.
    The top and the bottom or it is that the Americans are used to holding arms and cant see how what we have is so good.
    Also, we cant see why they feel what they have is so good.
    K, well i may read this in the morning and change it, but i know what i mean!!
    Thanks for taking the time to read it.

    Hello, my name is John. I like to dress up as a kipper at weekends. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif"&gt;
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    You just dwell in your little fearful world,
    surrender, disarm, and may your chains set
    lightly upon you.
    Americans however,
    will remain armed, free, as the Founding Fathers
    taught.

    It is you who feel the need to protect youself with guns so who is the on living in fear.

    Are you really from Britain. I doubt it very much. If you do live in Britain you certainly go on as though you're American.

    Not that I have a problem with that. I just wonder why you feel the need to say you live hear and call yoursef Baldog as though to highlight the fact you're British.



    Forward ever
    Backward never
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    er, hello! I'm a human being; what's more I'm female and a teenager thus I'm very emotional and all that. I think you'd have a deal of trouble trying to find someone who was more horrified by murders and rapes than myself.

    So, understandably, I think that any tool that could help crazy people carry out murders and rapes should be heavily controlled.

    Sorry for saying ten years and not twenty, not sure it makes a great difference seeing as the only shooting massacre in the UK in that time was Dunblane, while there were many more in the USA. MOK is right - Israel is a war zone. People get shot. I remember a few months ago there was a terrible, cold-blooded shooting of a little boy.

    Ultimately the idea of having guns in a school revolts me. Children should be free of fear in school; learning is sacred . . . ok I'll stop being romantic but I could go on. Guns are not a cure, they are just a deterrent. Students who feel the need to shoot their schoolmates need professional help - they don't need to be feared by all and sundry, that might make it worse.

    As for Switzerland (oh, Turtle, Turtle, where are you?!) - the Swiss are very proud indeed that their country has remained uninvaded for god knows how long. They place a tremendous emphasis on defence for that very reason. Their country is so naturally defensible because of the mountainous regions - they could fight a guerrilla defence for decades and never lose. That's why they keep guns, because they wwill always be on the defensive. They did not get invaded in WW2, they were not part of it at all - so there were no deaths! Therefore WW2/Switzerland is not exactly a relevant example and not supportive to your case.

    "Liberty is waning in the UK" - how? How am I not at liberty to do what I wish? How am I caged? You live in the UK too, or so you say. Are you not at liberty?

    Confidence is the feeling you sometimes have before you fully understand the situation.
    - Anon
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