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Benefits and unruly Children

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Labour today announced plans to remove Child Benefit from parents on unruly (out of control) children.

Can someone explain what is wrong with this approach, noting that it isn't being suggested in isolation but alongside a series of other measures in force...

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is wrong, stupid and just making things worse!

    Taking away the child benefits will make their parents even poorer. And what would happen if their children cant get enough of what they want? They would steal, rob, mug, so all sorts of teenage crimes will increase.

    Second, do you think the children really care if their parents get less of their benefits? It is the parents suffer, not the children! You cant teach the children a lesson that way.

    I am a bit worried of Tony Blair recent policies, not very hopeful in his next election.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How can things possibly get worse? The only people who would be affected by these proposals would be those parents and kids who were habitual scumbags and criminals.

    The people affected would already be as bad as bad can be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Things get worse because these people got more of an excuse to mug others. If they do not have enough money, they will have more motive to commit a crime.

    My solution to this is to put all the problem kids to a special school. In this way the 'normal' kids are not effected and the one with problems are given special care. Their parents are required to see social workers so that they know how to control their children.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but they are already mugging people even when they have the money.

    Special schools? Why exactly are these kids gonna turn up to these special schools then? They will just walk out and terrorise the neighbourhood like normal.

    Parents attending classes by social workers? ROFLMAO..The social services of this country is a total joke. You really think these parents are gonna turn up and even if they are forced, do you really think they will give a shit?

    The only thing that will get through to these people is money..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by NiceK:
    <STRONG>
    My solution to this is to put all the problem kids to a special school. In this way the 'normal' kids are not effected and the one with problems are given special care. Their parents are required to see social workers so that they know how to control their children.</STRONG>

    There aren't enough teachers as it is and
    who the hell is going to want to work at a school full of rough problem kids?
    How does bundling all the problem kids together make things better? Surely they'll socialise and make each other worse?

    I think that taking the benefits of parents who let their children bunk off school is a good idea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by NiceK:
    <STRONG>It is the parents suffer, not the children! </STRONG>

    Ever heard of parental responsibility?

    I <STRONG>am</STRONG> a parent. I am responsible for my children's actions until they are adult. That's my approach.

    It's about time more parents we made to feel responsible for what their kids do. If this achieves that, then I'm all for it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with Balddog.. 90% of "unruly" children/teenagers are the product of disfunctional homes where the parent(s) just couldn't give a shit. All they understand is handouts.. poverty my arse. I don't know about the UK but here in Ireland, if you are a single mother or out of work parents, you are actually better off than if you are working. Free rent, child benefit, single mothers allowance, fuel allowance, free schooling, no childcare expenses... that's a nice little income without having to lift your arse off the sofa. Out of control teenagers and children are allowed do exactly what they like because their parents have no concept of responsibility or good parenting. I believe that they are out of control because there is NO control in the home. I'm not saying I'm perfect but the least I would do is make sure I know where my child is at all times and chastise him if he did anything wrong. Now you can't tar everyone on benefits with the same brush but the way I see it is this.. if you don't like living in "poverty" then do something about it and if you have a genuine interest in your children you will nuture them, teach them good example, respect for other human beings and lay down some ground rules. Being "poor" doesn't mean that your kids are going to be criminal masterminds. These people don't need their benefits taken away, they need to be sterilised.

    J, I don't think anyone is saying that these kids are born this way. I agree, a child is like a blank canvas... I have my own canvas at home... what goes on around them will influence the way in which they grow.. If all they ever see is a lapse attitude to life and indeed a lapse attitude to their own welfare, then I'm not surprised that 90% of them turn out like they do.. It's not the kids fault.. it's the parents.. Taking away their benefits might spurn them into taking some positive action... but I doubt it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think child benefit is pretty pointless anyway, for better off people it makes no difference but then it is nice to actually get a benefit available to everyone and not mean tested.

    How would you define "out of control"? I think punishments regarding money are pointless, eg if a kid vandalises a bus stop they might get a fine of £100. If their family is well off that is nothing much. If they are not so well off, then they will pay it off at something like £2 a week. So it means nothing.

    I dunno. I just think the idea sucks and hits poor people where it hurts. Yes you could say they should control their children but it just seems wrong to me, to hit the parents in the pocket for the kids crimes..

    Hit the kids not the parents.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by * k-t *:
    <STRONG>Hit the kids not the parents.</STRONG>
    Without parental co-operation, that becomes much more difficult. If the parent(s) can't see what the child has done wrong, or disagrees with the punishment, then the message won't get through.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by J:
    <STRONG>There must be a reason why these kids are like they are and I think it lies with money in the first place.We look at poor areas of the coutry and we see kids like this, it's staring us in the face is it not?
    It's all the governments fault if you think about it logicaly. Jobs, benefits, schools and housing all come down to the government, and it is all these things combined that leads to kids acting in this un-ruley manner.</STRONG>

    Not quite. Family is the primary socialisation of any child. They learn a lot of their values and traditions and a sense of 'who they are' before they even get a sniff of school.

    I admit, from then onwards school is the primary source of socialistion. But if the kids are little brats before they get there it's a bit too late [although I agree dealing with unruley pupils in schools needs to be looked into].

    Parents of unruley kids tend not to give a flying fuck about the trouble their kids get into, unless it costs them money.
    I saw a father with his kid on the bus, his kid told him that he'd been suspended from school. His father replied "Nice one! <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">". Since then his son has been brought home by the police twice for unruley behaviour.

    That's not quite relevant, but the kid had the "I want to be just like my dad <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">" attitude. Aspirations of being a socially deviant fucktard isn't desirable in todays society.

    Jobs and benefits? My dad was unemployed for a fair while but my family never degenerated into crime and deviance. I don't see the link. Especially when nowadays families get more benefits thrown at them than they know what to do with.
    It's not directly the fault of the Government (although I'm sure they're not totally blameless), it's the fault of the values of the working class communities from which the majority of those socially deviant arise.
    Originally posted by J:
    <STRONG>What else could it possibly be? If you say the parents, then weren't they brought up in the same city or town also?</STRONG>
    Yeah they were. Why's that relevant?
    All human behaviour is learnt. You can't say "well it's not the parents fault because they were brought up as arseholes too". In having children parents have a responsibility to raise that child in a correct manner, so that they won't be unruley and won't have a negative impact on society in general. They have a duty to give their children the best possible start in life. Unfortunately in working class communities these values are evidently missing.
    Originally posted by J:
    <STRONG>"A child is a blank canvas when born, the world around it is what paints the picture."</STRONG>
    Exactly! And the biggest piece of the jigsaw of the "world around it" is the family. It's about time we stopped letting incompetent apathetic parents scrawl all over their children's 'canvas' and starting making the parents paint pretty pictures.

    [is shocked and appauled at himself for defending Blair <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Don't put down working class people, not all working class people are criminals and deviants. The majority are law abiding ordinary people. If not the majority, at least some! On every council estate there are people that hate living there, people who try to keep out of trouble and look after their neighbourhood.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with J, it is clear that poverty and the lack of oppurtunity in certain deprived areas is a key factor in shaping some kids behaviour. Taking away benefits will only affect the poor, what about middle-class parents with unruly children, they won't care will they....
    All they understand is handouts.. poverty my arse
    hahahahahahaha
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by J:
    <STRONG>

    But those parents were also kids once, so could we blame it all on thier parents, and thier parents before? I don't think you can simply blame parents for the way kids grow up these days, how much time does a school child actually spend at home?</STRONG>

    I hate generalising here because you can have a good product of a bad home and a bad product of a good home.. BUT in a lot of cases, across the class spectrum, yes it is a vicious circle.. the grandparents were "bad" parents, their children carried on the tradition and their children after them etc. but that's the way there were brought up and they know nothing different. And I think YES you CAN lay the blame on the parents.. there is only so much the schools can do. School is there for kids to be educated, teachers are not parents. And it must be very exasperating for teachers where they reprimand the kids and then the parents coming in shouting the odds at the teachers for doing so. Anyway a great majority of these kids don't bother going to school half the time and it is their parents responsibility to ensure that they do go. Really, in my opinion anyway, it is up to the parent to discipline the child and be responsible for their upbringing, not the schools.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by J:
    <STRONG>

    But those parents were also kids once, so could we blame it all on thier parents, and thier parents before? I don't think you can simply blame parents for the way kids grow up these days, how much time does a school child actually spend at home?</STRONG>

    So surely something should be done to break this cycle you claim exists?

    Parents should be directly responsible for the actions of their children.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely there are many situations where the parent is simply unable to control the child, thus the parent is punished but cannot do anything.......

    It is simplt Blair being a shit populist nob as usual......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>It is simplt Blair being a shit populist nob as usual......</STRONG>

    Have you <STRONG>seen</STRONG> the reaction? Hardly very popular - except here. Both opposition parties comdemned it, many of his own party have condemned it.

    Unless the reaction here is proof of how out of touch these politicians are to public opinion.

    <STRONG>
    Surely there are many situations where the parent is simply unable to control the child, thus the parent is punished but cannot do anything.......
    </STRONG>

    At what point did they become so out of control? At birth?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hmm how about forced sterilization of idiot parents and seizure of all children deemed a problem. They could be forced into specialized schools or perhaps the military.

    Either way - they need a good kick in the ass.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by * k-t *:
    <STRONG>Don't put down working class people, not all working class people are criminals and deviants. The majority are law abiding ordinary people. If not the majority, at least some! On every council estate there are people that hate living there, people who try to keep out of trouble and look after their neighbourhood.</STRONG>

    I'm working class myself k-t.
    Didn't mean for it to come across as a generalisation.
    But it is more likely in W/C communities.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here are some points needed to be put back right:

    1. Workers class parents are not necessary worse parents than middle class parents. In fact, many worker class parents know how to control their children and teach them well. Some middle class parents could spoil their children. Workers class and middle class may not speak the same language but it is unfair to discriminate simply because someone's background less well off then others.

    2. Taking away child benefits is actually against citizen rights. There are lots of parents rely on child benefits as they only earn low income and have to support a whole family. And what about the unruly children going to do if they got less than what they used to have? Mug of course. So things will get worse.

    3. I believe the vast majority of parents want to see their children good. Who wants a bad unruly child? Simply blame the parents is unfair and stupid.

    And why doesnt the labour government do something to cure the root of the problem rather than doing this gimmick which wont work at all? Believe me, if that turns out law, the problem will still be there and wont be any better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by NiceK:
    <STRONG>Who wants a bad unruly child? Simply blame the parents is unfair and stupid.
    </STRONG>
    No it really isn't. Bad parents --> bad children.
    If the parents don't discipline the children, and do not respect authority themselves, then the child isn't going to.
    (On the whole, k-t <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">)
    <STRONG>And why doesnt the labour government do something to cure the root of the problem rather than doing this gimmick which wont work at all? Believe me, if that turns out law, the problem will still be there and wont be any better.</STRONG>
    I do agree with that. This is a gimmick, and will not get to the root of the problem. For starters, when would the benefits be returned? Would the child have to stay out of trouble (ie not get caught <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">) for a set period of time? Or would the benefits never be returned?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by NiceK:
    <STRONG>Here are some points needed to be put back right:

    1. Workers class parents are not necessary worse parents than middle class parents. In fact, many worker class parents know how to control their children and teach them well. Some middle class parents could spoil their children. Workers class and middle class may not speak the same language but it is unfair to discriminate simply because someone's background less well off then others.
    </STRONG>

    Now take a look around the country. Where are the areas with most crime?

    I <STRONG>know</STRONG> it is a sweeping generalisation but I think you'll find that these are 'working class' areas.

    Point is that we <STRONG>all</STRONG> know that poverty and crime are linked. That doesn't remove responsibilty for your own actions and those of your (young) children.

    As you say, not all poor people are criminals.

    <STRONG>
    2. Taking away child benefits is actually against citizen rights. There are lots of parents rely on child benefits as they only earn low income and have to support a whole family. And what about the unruly children going to do if they got less than what they used to have? Mug of course. So things will get worse.</STRONG>

    Citizen rights? <STRONG>What</STRONG> citizen rights?

    Benefits aren't a right, they are granted by the Govt and the Govt can take them away.

    I am a parent who relies on Working Family Tax credit and Child Benefit. Without them my family would sink. I really don't need telling about that aspect of life.

    The only people who would have beneft removed are those who [qb[take no responsibility[/qb] for the actions of their children. The only people affected are those associated with crime. There is an easy way to avoid this happening...take responsibility.
    <STRONG>3. I believe the vast majority of parents want to see their children good. Who wants a bad unruly child? Simply blame the parents is unfair and stupid. </STRONG>

    And a vast majority of parent won't be affected. That's the point <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">.

    <STRONG>
    And why doesnt the labour government do something to cure the root of the problem rather than doing this gimmick which wont work at all? Believe me, if that turns out law, the problem will still be there and wont be any better.</STRONG>


    This isn't the only measure (I think I pointed that out at the start) and there are other approaches being taken to tackle the problem. Added to that is that NO DECISION has been made. This idea was leaked to the press inorder to gauge public opinion (and in the lead up to an election) so you can be pretty sure that it won't be done.

    If it only serve to fuel a debate about 'responsibilty' then it was worth it.

    Judging by your comments you seem to feel that the Government is responbile for crime...not the perpetrators.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So MoK if your kid shop-lifted and your benefits got taken away that would be your fault?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hypothetical situation: family of 4, a 10 yr old and a 15 yr old. An abusive father. If the teenager's 'out of control' they get fined.
    then:

    a)the blameless 10 yr old gets punished by
    default.

    b)the parents blame the teen. The father resents him and considers it entirely his fault. consequences? who knows?

    c) as a result the teen gets on worse with his father than before, hence contributing to the further deteriation of the family unit, hence making it more likely that the younger child will become a tearaway. NOBODY WINS.

    Teen crime is very strongly correllated with a difficult background. More serious crimes, particularly, are very likely to have been committted by a youth who has a difficult home life; children of abusive parents are far, far more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else. nature not nurtureand all that.

    The vicious circle won't be escaped if we simply perpetuate familial resentment. We'd be much better advised to improve social services and invest more in poor areas, improve education, encourage young people to find interests etc.etc.etc. If you treat people like criminals you'll find they act like them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would through an absolute shit fit with the little bugger.

    But the whole concept isn't about a single incident, it is about children who <STRONG>persistently</STRONG> offend and parents who do <STRONG>nothing</STRONG> to stop them.

    From the point that my children started to reach for toys I taught them to say thank you. From the moment they started to ask for things, I taught them to say please. Whenever they did something which broke a 'notional' set of moral rules, I chastised them. The effect of this is that I know that I (and my relatives) can take my children anywhere and they will behave. That they are polite. I have taught my children that there is a difference between right and wrong and that there are some things which are unacceptable.

    If my son gets detention at school, I want to know what he has done, so that I can also punish him at home as well.

    I have taken that responsibility.

    That is the difference. My child, my responsibility. if parents a consistently avoiding this responsibility then we, as a society, needs to remind them of it. if that means penalising them financially so be it.

    It is not the state or anyone else to blame if my child misbehaves. It is me and my child.

    Or should we just continue to make excuses for them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Prufrock:
    <STRONG>If you treat people like criminals you'll find they act like them.</STRONG>

    If the child has committed a crime he <STRONG>is</STRONG> a criminal.

    In life you have two choices. Accept responsibility for you own actions, or find someone to blame.

    You seem to prefer the latter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you seem to beleive that a childs nature comes entiraly from their parents and that isn't true.....

    Incidentally what if when you try to discipline your child he tells you to fuck off and goes and does it again?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>
    Incidentally what if when you try to discipline your child he tells you to fuck off and goes and does it again?</STRONG>

    Yeah but how did the child become like that in the first place?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because of his friends, because of his environment, because of the culture that surrounds him, children are not just influenced by their parents in fact I would say that once they are going to school they are more influenced by that than their parents......

    You can be the best parent in the world but your kid may still turn out "bad" if you want to use crap definitions
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