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You will never, ever find any police force or judicial system anywhere that authorises or orders the use of dogs to intimidate defenceless and harmless prisoners who are already securely held at a prison.
Those US guards were using dogs as fun, to terrorise (and in some cases attack) inmates who were danger to nobody and were already locked up securely.
You would never see that as an approved or officially sanctioned tactic anywhere.
There is a massive difference there.
Yes there is no proof that there has been direct orders from Rumself, though most people including many observers and commentators would appear to believe the green light had been given from well above.
In any case there is a precedent of sorts. It is a universally known truth that abuses and some forms of torture are happening in Guantanamo Bay. What happens in Gitmo has been fully sanctioned, approved and even defended by highest members of the US administration including Rumselfd and the chimp himself. So why should we think Abu Ghraib should be any different?
That is why the public has every right to see the images and the right to demand a fuller investigation
Not our fault. We've put all those points forward before and it is Walkindude who have made the increasingly silly statements and then started throwing tantrums and insulting everyone...
I put one of my posts in caps as you still seem to ingore the fact there was no offical sanction for your accustations and you have no proof. I put them in caps so you might comprehend that since you ingore it every other time i have written it.
Al jazerra are just as bad as FOX, thats a fact. You deride FOX yet you use links from Al jezerra. That says alot to me.
Ohhh so because there is no proof of you claims of higher officals green lighting the practices we saw in the tapes, that means it must be true? They all decided to fuck over the Iraqi prisioners in some white house smoking room?? Yeah of course they did. Of course you can believe that, but it doesnt cut any cloth in a debate where evidence is needed.
The dogs were used when th eprisoner was out of his cell and being transported, at the base and aiding in capture. Perfectly legal and the same practice police forces use.
Sensory deprevation is pefectly acceptable, I never said it wasnt and never will.
well another pointless comment from you alddin, all too common. I'm sure as much as you deried these practices, if Bush and the administration were somehow cpatured and treated the same way as those few iraqi prisioners were, you'd say that was acceptable.
No its not bigger then we thought. Those pictures were taken at the exact same time, in the same place. It was the same people involved. Its old news. They were punished. If no officers have been charged then there wa sno evidence to link them to the crime.
it serves no purpose and there is no need for "action" to be demanded except in fevered little minds.
the only kid here is you.
No I have hit the nail on the head actually. Another armchair activist with no clue to the real world. Ban Bush, ban america fuck the west attitude all while listening to your ipod, eating mcdonalds and passing through security checks on public transport.
Pay more attention eh?
If there was any proof Rumsfeld would have been charged already (so long as there is any impartiality and independence in the US judiciary system). But even if there is no proof it is all too clear for all to see, just as it is all to clear for all to see that there were never any WMDs in Iraq for the last few years and that Bush and Blair lied to us about it.
Understand now? Or should I engage by Caps Lock key?
It's a fact, is it? Why don't you provide some facts to sustain that accusation, since you demand the same of others?
Al Jazeera might have an agenda. But then so do all the Western broadcasters we know and watch regularly, from CNN to the BBC. The only difference is that Al Jazeera is the first significant station that doesn't dance to the West's tune and puts a Western spin to it. That's all the difference there is.
Unless of course you can prove to me that they really are as bad as Fox...
Well?
You got any proof of that?
Lies. Is not legal to terrorise prisoners for amusement (and to take photographs of them for good measure).
Why do you think there were photographs taken in the first place? For the same reason there were photographs taken of prisoners being punched, humiliated or made to simulate sex while naked. It was just another form of abuse and torture.
You don't see this in Western prisons and it is not legal:
And if you claim otherwise, then you mut be the most clueless person in the history of mankind.
Funny how most people and organisations consider it a form of torture.
No I wouldn't so don't put words in my mouth and don't make things up about me if you please.
It is bigger than we thought when new footage of a mentally ill patient is released in which he's allowed to repeatedly bang his head against the wall until he's bleeding, or to cover himself (or be covered) in faeces.
That's something we didn't know about.
And then you have remember that there are a number of images and footage deemed too disturbing to be broadcast and which will not be shown by anyone.
Do I get the feeling you'd rather this incident was forgotten quickly because you don't like the fact that the so-called liberators of Iraq are indulging in the same practices they claim to have freed the Iraqi people from?
As I said before, stop putting into my mouth and making things up.
Post a quote where I have indicated or even led anyone to believe I wish to "ban America" (whichever that might mean) or "fuck the west", or shut it.
And please don't make me having to explain the difference between disliking the actions of a government and disliking a whole nation or people, as I have had to explain to countless chickenhawks and armchair neocons over the years. It does get rather tiresome.
You support the use of torture techniques. Says it all really.
When WMD's and Bush and Blair lying were mentioned, i didnt see Walkindude commenting on that before hand so i do not see how that is relevent to the "how high up did the toruture prisoners" argument?
When walkindude said this is not bigger then we thought, he didnt mean bigger as in what was broadcast, he meant bigger in terms of how many incidents and how many involved at higher levels. As it seems all the photographs came from the same set of incidents we already new about, the only new information is details, right?
Also, let us not pretend Al Jazeera are as good as the BBC or CNN. They are on a par with Fox and thats as low as it gets.
Just a few niggling things i noticed.
Oh and i think American prisons are this bad...its just they are more easily covered up by wardens in southern states! Shawshank Redemption people!
Your point is mute and muddled. There is no proof. Simply as, yet you keep climaing its a fact when it is isn't I was trying to get you to see that but your blinkered view won't allow it.
oh and lest keep to the argument at hand eh? WMD debate serves no pupose here.
Al Jazerra not dancing to western tune? Oh giv eme a break. No they dance to their own tune of anti-americanism and anti-westernims because thats what seels for them. They are as biased as Fox, they are as bad. They report on all the abuses yet ingonre the other side of when saddam wa sin power or what the insurgants are doing. They help to insight the situation thats going on in Iraq now. The fact you ignore this but post venomously against fox shows flaw in your arguments and position.
Look at the pictures, quite a few of them were being transported around the prison at the time and was out of his cell. Its right there.
I never said that hitting, humilating, sexual abuse wa slegal at all did I? Practice what you preach abotu words in peoples mouths. I said the use of dogs was legal, its not a lie. I have seen polic eint his country use dogs to intimidate captured felons, much the same as in those pictures.
No real orgainsiation or anyone with any sense consideres it real torture. Its not th esame as sitting on a glass bottle is it? Its non harmful but effect techinique of breaking down resistance and disorinatation, in preperation for interrogation and questioning. Simple and easy.
Its much better to do thta then beat someone up isnt it? I know which I'd prefer.
Yes blagsta, I do believe that in some cases torture is necassary, although I don't see sensory deprevation as torture.
Its not bigger then we thought at all! Thats th epoint. It was done at the same place, at the same time, by the same people in the same numbers. We were told at the time there was more footage of the incidents at the time but hey werent showing it dude to its nature and probably to try not to inflame the situation in iraq. All this is, is the same stuff in a bit more detail. Rehashed and only serving to put troops in danger. Its like the deleted scenes on a dvd. Its not a new movie, just cut stuff from an old one.
Well what can one think when all you write about on here is how bad america is. Yes you can critcise there governmnet, fair enough but its all you do and you dont have clear graps of the facts. Saying the prisioners in Quantanom Bay do not have special status etc etc, deriding fox but supporting al jezzarra. Its so hypocrtical. Your avatar with the bbush bashing slogan. Its all geared towards it.
I guess if I was to clarify or lessens on my opinion in harshness then I would say that senseory depreavtion could techincally be a type of totrure but a non lethal one that is perfectly acceptable to use in military sitiuations.
Simple as.
At the end of the day people are being tortured either because they were ordered to be or because the US government is not capable of controlling their soldiers overseas. Both ideas are worrying.
I do have to ask Blag, on behalf of Walkindude however, can you name an examples specifically of information gathered from duress to be wrong? Or is it just acase of you assume it is so? Because no specific examples one way or the other come to mind.
It is more likely, sometimes torture does work...and sometimes it doesnt.
The Birmingham 6 spring to mind.
I'm not that shocked tbh. But as I wrote in a previous post, if we (as the govt said we were) going to war to depose a brutal regime that was involved in torture and murder, then for us to do exactly the same things is a tad hypocritical, no?
Anyway...Who is to say it is morally wrong? Who are we to claim to be civilised and superior to nations and peoples who use torture readily? are we arrogant enough to think, what we do or believe is right and what others do is wrong? I mean torture existed since forever and has always been used. 6000 years on we suddenly decide out of the blue it is wrong morally (in biblical terms of course) and ethically (Logical terms). Are we right now, and were wrong for 6000 years? or are we going to find we are wrong now but were right?
I for one do not know...as i say, on the point that was made about it not working (rather then it been right or wrong) i say sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesnt. As for the arguments of whether it is justifyable or not...i cannot say. I would find myself to be a hypocrit if i said i have never thought from time to time it could be useful. But then we return to ethics and the question of right and wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six
Thank you
Me.
But this is what our governments do claim.
What an absurd argument. Saying that just because something has always been so then it must be OK is logical nonsense.
Can you point to any instance where it has "worked" (whatever that means)
Second of all, how the hell do i know when it works...do i look like im in the CIA, MI6 or the Military?
The only mentions of it i can think of working that i heard was every single time Ex-SAS men are interviewed and they talk about how they had to use torture to find out troop movements for operations. But as their faces are always blacked out and so forth, it is not really evidence i suppose.
Although i do have a gripe with Human Rights! What a corck of shit! I mean really! Most of Africa is dying of preventable diseases and going to war with each other, slaughtering each other en mass, but no one cares! no one goes to stop it! no one tries to help! all the aid organisations in the world are too politically motivated too, they all gripe about th emiddle east and things because they know thats were they will get the attention! They forget about Africa and even Central America too i would assume. They are suppse to be helping people, so why do they not do it equally in the world.
Sorry, i know that isnt on torture, it just bugs me thats all!
So you can't think of any times when it "works" then. Thought not. Anyone else? Walkindude?
'Human rights'? You don't think people should have rights then?
I wouldn't make a sweeping judgement like that, especially not in such a simplistic way. It depends on which human rights organisaton you are talking about for example. There are groups working in Africa, but it's not as simple as throwing money at the situation, there are not far off two hundred countries in the world. You have genocide in Sudan, a military dictatorship in Burma, you have homophobic killings in Mexico and child prostitution in Thailand.
That's a lot of research and a lot of money. Nothing is as simple as just waving a magic wand. It's not that people don't care.
Depends what you want to do. If you want information, you'll get it, along with all sorts of other crap. It's useless for gaining confessions, put someone under enough pain and they'll tell you anything, but you can glean information from it. If you want to scare the shit out of people to make them fear you, then it works for that too.
If you want to stay happy and healthy and not the victim of reprisals, gain support for yourself that isn't based on fear etc, then it's useless.
Guy Fawkes named his co-conspirators under torture.
Torture may be wrong, but to say it never works isn't true. That said it's not very effective, the threat of it tends to be more effective than the torture.