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Your changing your position and deliberately misreading mine. They came about from imagining that the real world was different, and then making it so.
So, the idea comes first, before the change. Your saying that material circumstances make changes happen, which is obviously bullshit. Ideas do.
That IS what you said. You just said it again in your first answer. Why not read what you have written and then see why I keep coming up with the same conclusion.
Sure he could. I don't see the relevence to the process - problem - idea - action - new problem. Your saying problem - pixies/mystical forces - solution.
Yeah, but not everyone did! Some people thought up the idea, then made them. Other people didn't, and didn't. If material circumstances made solutions magically appear then everyone would come up with the same solutions. Bobbins, and you know it.
That you can stack idea on top of idea on top of idea, with no way to make the ideas reality, which means that ideas need no relationship to what you can currently do. Notice your roman can't do "x" example? This disporves it totally.
Look, are there limits on what ideas you can come up with or not? Does the mind obey the rules of physics or is it totally unconstrained. Wink the eye in your left knee whenever you like......
Very odd. Because all you do is recommend books and post crap.
No, I'm not.
They came from observing the real world. You seem to think that ideas are completely divorced from material reality. They're not. Someone sees the material reality around them and it leads to ideas. Thus observing birds leads to the idea of flight.
No. The idea is prompted by the material world.
Errr...no I'm not. Try again.
Ideas which come about from observations of the material reality.
No it isn't. Try again.
No I didn't. Try again.
Because you're being deliberatly obtuse. Read again or quote me.
Errrr...how exactly?
Yes. Problem. Originating in the material world. Solution also originating in the material world. What don't you get?
No, thats your position.
Eh? Its your logic thats bobbins mate. People can only think of the idea of horse shoes when they have observed that horses become lame. There is nothing in this that means that everyone automatically comes up with that.
You've lost me. Da Vinci would have got the idea of the helicopter from observing the natural world, from those little helicopter seed things that so fascinate children? Y'know, the real world? Remember that?
No, can't work out what you mean here.
What on earth are you on about? The idea of an eye or a knee or winking comes from our physical experience of having eyes, knees etc. Whats your point caller?
You don't read my posts that carefully do you? And anyway, its not like I'm gonna recommend you meet my clients am I? Confidentiality an' that.
No, it does. Quit fantasising about life and get out there and live it.
You're quite the fantasist aren't you?
No, they're true.
I like the way you use terms from models that you claim to disagree with.
Depends on the problem. Real deep change takes years.
So you do agree with the importance of the material circumstances? Make yer bleedin' mind up.
People with good material conditions can also have addiction problems too y'know.
No shit sherlock.
So you do agree that material conditions are vital? You changed yer tune quickly.
Yes and I work with people with complex needs. Mental health, emotional problems, substance misuse problems, lack of basic skills, lack of confidence, lack of interpersonal skills, lack of housing and money etc. The fact that I work with people with complex needs appears to give me more of an insight than you appear to have.
Mystical new age NLP bollocks I'm afraid. You're deluding yourself if you think you can tell all that. No one knows any of that stuff, not even cutting edge neuroscientists.
You ever a member of TOPY by any chance?
You're deluded.
Utter utter bollocks I'm afraid.
More bollocks.
You really are crazy.
I'll try to make it simple I guess.
Are your ideas constrained by physical laws, time or what's actually possible?
Yes or no?
What's natures submarine again?
oh god no, mate, I got all my ideas from observing the real world, which my mind is inextricably tied to. :rolleyes:
Secondary gain is accepted by both NLper's and hypnotists. What the fuck are you on about?
hmmmmm.....nope. People learn phobias in one go sometimes, they can learn other things just as fast.
Look, if your problem is that you have poor social and material conditions, then you can either change the material and social conditions or you can change your mind about what is or isn't a problem. Doing the second one isn't advisable because it has actual real effects on your health if you can't afford medice and food, for example. It's still possible.
In your area of work, undoubtedly. I am asked to make specific changes for a specific purpose and that's my area of work.
Didn't even ask me for any details how I do it. Not very curious are ya, oh dismissive one?
Never heard of it.
No, quick inductions are very possible, phobia installation is possible, memory lapses are installable. Like I said, not very ethical though.
:rolleyes:
You seem to think that ideas aren't a product of the world. Even weirder.
My ideas can only be based on the world around me. Yes I can imagine flapping my arms and flying to the moon, but so what? That's not an idea its a flight of fancy. One that arises from observing birds flying and observing the moon. Both features of the material world last time I looked.
Fish? Whales?
You've observed the Queen going round saying "I own this" have you?
Didn't think you'd know where the concept originates.
Not really deep change that is it?
Yes, you work in a very limited way with simple problems and never see the follow up. Hence you have a limited understanding.
I don't have to ask, its obvious bollocks.
Check 'em out but don't take 'em too seriously.
http://www.topy.net/
This is gibberish.
Your views are gibberish.
You get the "flight of fancy" first, and then you look to the real world to make it happen. This is what I said all along. Idea comes first, then action. Why do you have such a problem with this. Is it because then people are in control, and not so much a product of impersonal forces like "capitalism"?
Go ask your local council. They will tell you that half your CT is rent paid to "HM GOVT" which is the thing that owns the "uk". If you really owned your own home no one could tell you what to do with it. It's that simple.
A phobia isn't a deep change? :eek: Never dealt with any have you? :no:
"Simple problems" such as addiction, eating disorders, depression, phobias, IBS, abuse and of course, the current bulge in smokers. Some people stay in contact for a long time, some don't. I know a guy who deals with cancer, body dysmorphia, MPD and all sorts of other heavy duty stuff. I'll freely admit he's much better than I am at it, but the basic methodology is the same.
If anyone is ignorant here, it's you, not me.
We can find out how you store and process time if you like, no risk with it. Up to you like.
Induction - to put someone in a trance. Can be done in seconds, deepening takes minutes. The same process that I use to "remove" a phobia can be employed in reverse to install one. Very unethical.
Well, I guess I'll take the obvious "no" on this.
how about the roughly six thousand years of recorded jistory ...mothing much changes for generation after generation after ...for thousands of years then boom!
where did all the ideas come from ...steam powerd travel at a hundred miles an hour ...radio flight etc etc.
were those ideas based on very much that came before?
You're not reading what I write. Idea comes from the material world. Ideas are not seperate from the world, they arise from it and are part of it.
I have a problem with it because its mystical bollocks.
Simply not true klintock.
No, its not deep change. Its something that can be dealt with by CBT usually quite easily.
Now I know you're talking bollocks. I work in addiction, my partner works in eating disorders. You're making stuff up.
No, its my job to know about these things. You're a charlatan and a fraud klintock, especially if you think that cancer can be treated by hypnosis. Show me some peer reviewed evidence please.
I actually think you're deluded. Every time we get into a protracted debate, you come up with mystical delusions like this.
More delusional bollocks.
:rolleyes:
Well we had cinema, we had magic lanterns and projections. We also had radio and before that the telegraph. Before that we had magnetism (a natural property of some materials) which gives us the clue that action at a distance might be possible.
Not strictly true m r. Go to Egypt sometime.
Steam powered travel never went at hundreds of miles an hour. I've dealt with radio and flight. The point is that all of these developments relied on the industrial revolution, the political changes brought about by the civil war, the land enclosures act etc.
Your not paying attention, nor have you read much fiction by the loos of it. There is no inextricable link between the two. Useful ideas will be connected to the real world, but you can build idea on idea on idea with no refernce to reality at all.
>pinches nose< Wrong way around. You said that acquiring a phobia wouldn't lead to a deep change in your life. like being housebound and shaking like a leaf by your front door isn't much to worry about. CBT is fun, but I prefer my way cos it's quicker.
Well, as I go and ask people and you just stick you fingers in your ears and go "la la la" I'll stick with what I know.
Hypnosis was the first treatment for those things. The egyptians used it long before Freud, Esdaille, Erickson etc You really should learn about stuff mate, go read some more books. :wave:
The cancer itself can't, the patient with cancer can. Hypnosis is very good at pain management, stress minimisation, maintaining belief in recovery and so on. If you don't think those things are of benefit your out of your fucking gourd.
http://jncicancerspectrum.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/jnci;93/11/810
Oh and peer review is intself a pretty worthless thing. All it says is sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. Can you find me a peer review of some of the more invasive, last ditch procedures while we are on the subject?
Are you gonna have a go or what?
You really don't know much, do you?
And yet, you still go to work every day.