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Except you do klintock, you do. You just won't admit it. How do you think private property rights are enforced klintock? Magic?
Why are you sticking your oar in here? You don't even know what klintock's reffering to (neither do I as it happens).
What private property rights?
The one's you're always wanking on about. Are you pissed klintock?
I trhink your mistaking the set of voluntary relations I would like to see with the state run scheme we have at present. You know, the collectivist, statist, communist one?
My position is clear. The initiation of force is always wrong. Defensive force is fine as long as it ceases the moment the problem is solved and kept to a minimum.
Have you been drinking? Seriously. Are you OK?
*worried*
Private property requires the initiation of force. You know it klintock so quit being so dishonest.
Not yet. (Said with feeling)
No it doesn't. Wyhat the fuck are you on about. Oh and you didn't get around to my comment about us having "achieved" communism through the back door either.
What the fuck are you on about?
You must be psychotic then 'cos your view of the world seems quite detached from reality.
How do you think people got to "own" land in the first place? Did the pixies grant it to them?
Errr...I've been at work. But you're totally barking if thats what you really believe. Totally off your fucking rocker.
You need help.
Nope. Your just a bit schizophrenic is all mate I think.
Depends which people you are talking about mate and the circumstances of the case. Some voluntarily traded for what they have, others took it by force.
Usually merchants etc choose the voluntary route, while left whingers and the like band together and leech off others or use violence.
Most of the planks of the communist manifesto have been achieved. Seems pretty communist to me.
Who doesn't?
Careful, you'll have someone's eye out with that rather large projection.
See, this is where some knowledge of history comes in handy. Look up the enclosure acts sometime (amongst other things)
Errr...except they haven't.
Thanks sickman fraud. :wave:
have some common sense mate. All those people are dead. And if you think I would support something like that your off your head. Fact remains that you can acquire vast wealth through voluntary trade.
If I get you on the facts, you'll move to theory, if your theory fails you'll move to history, if your history is irrelevant, you'll swap to insults. How about just answering the points for a change?
Sure they have. I listed them befopre - which one do you think hasn't been done?
Oh look, you're avoiding the issue. As per fucking usual.
You've never actually read the communist manifesto have you?
look, you stated that property rights require the initiation of force. I've pointed out that they don't have to be, you can acquire wealth through voluntary trade. Thus, your position is blown out of the water. I support voluntary trade and defensive force.
I abhor forced relationships and offensive force. Shame you are only to quick to grab a weapon or ask the "state" to do it for you.
I listed the planks earlier on - go and look what I put. Abolition of private property etc etc. Most of it's been done. Grats, looks like you are getting what you thought you wanted. Still, I wouldn't take advise on economics from a penniless beardy weirdy, but there you go.
To make things you need land and resources...
A complete misrepresentation of my position. A little honesty from you wouldn't go amiss. You're the one advocating force. Its a logical corollary of your philosophical position on private property.
When was private property abolished? I missed that one.
You've never actually read the whole thing have you?
No shit.
Look, if I have misunderstood what little I have been able to gather about yourr position I apologise. As you never state anything and only rarely make statements about stuff, it's kindof like feeling for a rock under soil. I know the basic shape of it bu I haven't seen what it is yet.
Defensive force is fine. Basically voluntaryist about title to land, tbh.
The "uk" has never had private property. It's always belonged to the "queen" first the person and later the legal fiction with the same name. As I mentioned to Kermit elsewhere, if you really owned your house, there could be no planning regs, no tax on it and it couldn't be "compulsory purchased" and you told to fuck off from it either.
Have I fuck. I don't like fiction much.
How do you think people come to be in possession of land and resources?
I've been quite clear. You haven't been reading. Libertarian socialism ring a bell?
How do you think people come to think they "own" land and resources? Hint: read some history. I know you think its unimportant but unless you know how we got from there to here, you won't be able to understand the current situation. Which you quite clearly don't.
This just blatantly isn't true.
Granted, the state can compulsory purchase. They don't just take it though do they? They renumerate you. If you didn't "own" it then they'd just take it.
You're crazier than a bag of spiders.
So you're arguing from a position of ignorance. Again. If you're gonna argue against something, it might be an idea to know what it is you're actually arguing against. Otherwise you come off looking like an idiot or a mentalist.
You mean originally? I don't know, no one does.
So you are in favour of using violence to get what you want. Fair enough.
Why do you think it's important or even relevent? I often wonder.
Rubbish. You need to know where you are and where you want to go, then make a map, then go travelling.
Yeah, I do. What can you actually do with your philosophy? Leaving aside all other issues, what can you practically achieve with it? Can you get more resources for yourself and yours? Can you do anything at all?
Showing your ignorance again, eh?
Yeah paper for property. Must be a difficult thing for them to roll the presses and keep a straight face when they hand it over. Involuntary purchase means you don't own it mate, you have equitable possession. Same as with your car and your kids, if you have any. Good trick, isn't it?
If only.
Puts fingers to temples........"Your first wife............her name ...........was........ ...Betty......." Or is it a different sort of mentalist you mean?
Communism had ten planks, 9 of them have been "achieved." I'm not arguing against anything (at least on this) I am just pointing out what's been done.
Hint: enclosures act
Errrr....
Errrr...you're the one that wants private property rights enforced. You must have some idea of how people get that property, surely?
History is bunk eh?
Hint - those people are all dead. Where are we now, where do we want to be and how do we get there. or actually, just me, because your not interested in doing much, are you?
Hmmm the thought occurs to me that you might mean different things by property rights than I do. Bear in mind I spend a lot of time in reality and go from there. You probably think I support shares and all that other paper guff.
Hang on....
Hint: common land was handed over into private property by force. Yes, those people may be dead but that common land is now owned by people who are still very much alive...
I don't think even you know what you mean by property rights. All I've ever seen from you is a load of badly thought out mystical claptrap.
Right. So how do we become those people to share the whole thing out properly again? Why bother with this political shite when you can just buy your freedom?
Snap. That's why I asked what you can do with your philosophy. Not much is the answer so far.
Solidarity, empathy and revolution.
That's because you don't know what my philosophy is. You're not interested either as far as I can tell.
Enlighten me as to what your plan is then? Wish really really hard that countries and the state disappear?
Take over the madhouse and you still have a madhouse. Revolution doesn't work, empathy will let you down if it's not tempered with common sense, and solidarity don't last in the face of comfy meals, bribes and the siphoning off of the most dangerous/persuasive to the established order.
Live as simply as possible, keep as much of my own cash as I can, make as many useful contacts as I can, build freedom for myself and my family.
This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. You think you have to get freedom etc through the state, in spite of the state. They really figure very little in your life (although that's due to change greatly in the near future) why not just do something else instead?
I don't want to take over the madhouse.
Very nearly worked in Spain in the 30's or Argentina much more recently.
Yes, yes, nice rhetoric. What does it mean?
I beg to differ. A complete restructuring of property relations, social relations and economics is what I want. I'd recommend some reading for you, but I know how you hate to educate yourself.
I'm alright Jack, fuck everyone else basically. What makes you so different from a tory?
Errrr...where have I mentioned freedom through the state?
man ...is the only creature who chooses what he wants to do/be.
choice is as natural to man as peeing.
when you bring it all down to a collective level ...you have just killed mans spirit.
man cannot thrive without choice.
collectivism has to be the height of failure.
You don't think that the current system is predicated on violence?
Yes...and?
More meaningless rhetoric. Anyway, I'm not arguing for collectivism in the way that you appear to understand it. I'd recommend you some reading as well, but you too seem to be rather anti-education.
You appear to think it is.
Personally, I think that the people who exploit us, destroy the environment in the name of profit, bomb other countries in pursuit of profit, create homelessness poverty and despair are legitimate targets.
That's what a revolution would be.
That your empathy isn't shared. By me for a start. You'd have to watch me and people like me. All the time.
That's pretty damn complex. I just want people to leave me alone and I'll extend them the same courtesy. I want freedom to choose, and by extension your freedom to choose. You want to rearrange everything, fine, be my guest, off you pop. Just don't expect me to join in or pay for it.
I don't use guns, cages or fraud and I have an entirely different view of what constitutes my self interest. I also don't expect people to join me beause of the magic of the "law".
Fair enough, you haven't. That was bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was you see the state as an obstacle that has to be surmounted first, or fought through and then everything else you want to do comes afterwards. I don't think that's the case.