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The best response I think I've read to that belief is here.
Some of Israel’s biggest critics are American Jews, I can’t think of a more critical figure of Israel than Norman Finkelstein for instance. Incidentally some of Israel’s most passionate supporters are evangelical Christians - not Jews. Most American Jews also vote Democrat, although the Democrats do of course still support Israel.
In short, another liar and extremist who associates with Tel Aviv's most useful American spies in the halls of power.
You're really showing your extremist colours with every post. Oh the irony!
More on the extent of Pipes' ideological zealotry, bigotry and desire for imposed ideological conformity in academia (the man who established Campus Watch as a means of blacklisting any academics who dare hold Israel up to the light of investigative scrutiny) can be found in this disturbing article on a shocking policy initiative...
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_02_02/article.html
Who do so from a theological perspective and hope that has anything but Israel's long term peace and security at heart, young Dis. Obvious you are ignorant of this fact as well.
Zionists have made great political capital of the advocates of extremist Fundamentalist belief, it doesnt make them any intellectually sound source upon which to rest your arguments, however.
You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. It's painful to watch, truly.
Its quite a complex issue, many of the Christians I know from the US tkae the Bible quite literally and therefore dont think there can be peace in Israel until judgement anyway. So if you're working from that basis peace processes are somewhat a pointless venture. Thats not to say they dont have sympathy for the Palestinians or have some sort of hatred for either side, its just whats written in the Bible so its what they believe.
That goes without saying, anyway. How could it be otherwise, with the US' indescribably biased and protectionist policy towards Israel, and the press presenting such breathtakingly distorted image of the Middle East conflict?
That's something that really makes me laugh. Evangelical Christians are undoubtedly the biggest zionists of them all- even more than the Israelis themselves. They support calls for a Greater Israel. A place where all the dirty Arabs are kicked out- or at least where the whole of Palestine is taken forever by Israel.
And the reason? Evangelicals believe in an old prophecy that claims (LOL) that the second coming of Jesus will only happen when the Jews occupy the whole of the Holy Land, rebuild their temple, and then get converted to Christianity.
Incredibly the Israeli government doesn't mind the support of a people who simply want to convert them all to Christianity.
Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows. :rolleyes:
Dont assume thats purely the Jewish lobby at all, they are powerful, though more through effective lobbying rather than a voting block (theres not enough of them for that).
It is the fact that a very large chunk of the ordinary christians in the US also believe in Israel as a God given state. Its the middle of the country which has the influence really and that is getting more religious and more conservative.
So do all sorts of groups.
I can think of a number of reasons that don't involve the Jews pulling puppet strings. First of all Israel is the only functioning democracy in the area. Secondly, they are militarily useful when the likes of Iran and Iraq build unsanctioned nuclear facilities (e.g.). Thirdly, the Arab nations have attacked Israel on a couple of occasions and linked with point 1, I suspect the US feels a burden of care - we're always harping on about the US supporting dictators, but they seem to reserve their greatest support for a democracy. There are probably a lot more reasons but I think those make a point.
The only times when America usually bothers is to further its own interests. In the case of Israel, it's a combination of geopolitical power and massive influence by the pro-Israel lobby.
Muslims to march against extremists
Yes, but that does not mean just Jews.
Any talk of Jewish-Masonic world consiparacies is utter nonsonse.
Also, Dis, Cland, i have had these arguments with each of you too, and Aladdin as well, its like the 30th time over it...not one of us will change our opinions will we.
Well it doesn't make sense to support democracies to your own detriment does it? That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
That's speculation though. And as someone else pointed out, the pro-Israel leaning need have nothing to do with Jews.
Do the means justify the ends? Out of context, it's impossible to answer your question...
The US government regularly champions itself as a crusader for democracy, freedom and human rights. And yet it has a long history of underminding, and even overthrowing democracies if it can replace those governments with someone it can control. Never mind that the useful idiot in question is always a brutal mudering fascist.
That's why any claims that the US government supports Israel because it is a democracy are simply rubbish. The US government doesn't really give a shit which Middle East countries are democracies and which ones are not, as its long and prosperous relationship with Saddam Hussein, the Taliban or the Saudis has proven.
Incidentally, Israel is no longer the only democracy in the Middle East. Palestine is now also a democracy.
Unfortunately the Palestinians haven't really realised that "democracy" doesn't actually mean voting for just anyone you want. Silly them!
Of course it can. They don't have to defend 'democracy' to be democratic. They only have to defend their own. Nothing in the concept 'democracy' requires the protection of anyone else's.
This is still rather hypothetical. Use an example - the real world is never as simple as your argument makes it.
That just looks like using a personal opinion as a premise.
A nation that claims to love democracy for everyone cannot just go and overthrow those democracies it doesn't like (Chile 1973) or undermind others (Venezuela, present day being just one of many).
I'll go have a lie down.
Not to it's own detriment though.
There's no logical contradiction.
It's not very nice, but it's perfectly possible to hold as a belief.
It was all just down to ultra-right wing politics and obsession with anyone deemed a "socialist" or "commie".
How on earth could you say that
You do think there is no contradiction in claiming to be a supporter of democracy for everyone while at the same time overthrowing democracies?
That is the dictionary definition of a contradiction.
Or it was about having another Cuba on their back porch.
Viewed on a continuum, no. If you have good reason to believe those democracies will not last and will cause more of a mess, then you would be duty-bound to do something I would think.
I think that some of the actions that the "US" has done go a little bit beyond what you might call "duty bound". Shooting bishops in the middle of mass etc might even be called excessive.
So the solution to unstable democracy is to install a tyrant? Not to, oh I don't know, help the more democratic elements a bit?
One doesn't have to be a supporter of Pinochet to recognise that Allende's supporters were beating up their political opponents and try to silence dissent. And Chavez recently held a rally to celebrate his failed attempt at a coup in 1992 - not to celebrate its failure mind, but to celebrate the actual coup attempt itself.
That is not what the US believed. Therefore it is right to call them hypocritical and to say they really don't give a shit about democracy.
Putting aside the fact that the whole point of democracies is that the will of the people must be obeyed.
No matter how you or grapes try to spin this issue. No country has a right to interfere in the electoral process of another nation. Especially when the said process is a democracy. And double especially when the country that is doing the interfering actually portrays itself as a promoter of democracy and freedom for everyone (LOL x 1,000,000,000,000).