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Denmark and the Islamic Cartoons ...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
See :- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4664408.stm

Isn't religon crazy? Denmark has been a bastion of free speech for decades or longer ...

People cannot choose to be born White, Black, Gay, Disabled etc but people CAN choose their religon - and their religon, therefore, should therefore be up for satirical scrutiny ...
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It makes me wonder about Islam when their first reactions to something like that are burning flags and making threats...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is why any organized religion should have no say in politics. If the cartoonist was a Muslim...well I could understand some criticism for breaking the tenets of Islam, but even then the reaction would be out of hand. But as it is, its totally unaccpetable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hrmmm I'd find it offensive if there was a cartoon in the same vein done about Pagans.

    It sounds very low brow and unfunny. I do agree with freedom of speech however and that I think some people are over-reacting to it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    but people CAN choose their religon - and their religon, therefore, should therefore be up for satirical scrutiny ...

    Not necessarily true. People in certain cultures/societies/communities would find it extremely difficult to abandon their faith (whether because they are afraid of peer pressure, or are just uneducated about the fact that there IS a choice at all).

    On a sidenote, I do actually agree with your point. Just not that bit ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From what I've heard, Denmark isn't being very friendly to a lot of its immigrants, so this doesn't surprise me that much. If it's not royalty or politics they report from there, it's immigrants burning flags and rioting. A lot of them muslims.

    The stricter immigration law Iceland picked up were also adopted from Denmark. Whey.

    That said, it's ridiculous that this is happening.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hrmmm I'd find it offensive if there was a cartoon in the same vein done about Pagans.

    It sounds very low brow and unfunny. I do agree with freedom of speech however and that I think some people are over-reacting to it.

    What sort of pagan are you (off topic)? Being a Discordian, I personally approve of any religion being up for satirical review, especially my own, but there we are. Agreed, it wasn't that funny, but then again if that was a crime we'd have "comedians" being hung in the streets. Actually, wait a minute...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And by happy coincidence, look what's happening in this country today:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4664398.stm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And by happy coincidence, look what's happening in this country today:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4664398.stm

    Just heard about that on the radio :eek2:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And by happy coincidence, look what's happening in this country today:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4664398.stm

    If Secretary General Iqbal Sacranie of The Muslim Council of Britain can pass judgment on the way I live my life as, for example, in his recent Radio 4 interview about gays (I'm a fairy, in case noone has noticed), then he should accept the fact that I can pass judgment on his tedious religon ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not necessarily true. People in certain cultures/societies/communities would find it extremely difficult to abandon their faith (whether because they are afraid of peer pressure, or are just uneducated about the fact that there IS a choice at all).

    I see what you are saying ... and I understand that there may be difficulty for people growing up in those communities - but we all sit and ponder the meaning of life, don't we? When we have the truth staring us in the face and we blatantly ignore it (even privately), then that is a choice ... but I agree its complicated. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hrmmm I'd find it offensive if there was a cartoon in the same vein done about Pagans.

    It sounds very low brow and unfunny. I do agree with freedom of speech however and that I think some people are over-reacting to it.

    Ok - convince me then why pagansim shouldn't be the object of comic comment? It's nothing personal but if you REALLY, REALLY believe in all that "mother earth" stuff in spite of the contradicting evidence of the origons of the earth being understood more and more each day by the scientists, you have to have broad shoulders and take the heat for your beliefs. You CHOOSE to believe it. Good for you! But I CHOOSE to dispel it. Feel free to make an offensive joke about my belief in the 'big bang' etc. :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah Denmark, great place, not as good as Holland though, Love them Dutchy's!

    Yep, we choose our religion, i agree. Religious hate laws have confused me here...what are they actually trying to do with them again? i keep missing the key points everyone else seems to know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Islam is not compatible with Western values.

    I know which is better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Islam is not compatible with Western values.

    I know which is better.

    Which Islam? Which "western values"? Why is Xtianity any more compatible?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Islam is not compatible with Western values.

    I know which is better.
    Islam is every bit as compatible (or incompatible) with Western values as Christianity. There is little to separate the two religions.

    The only difference here is that fundamentalists from one to one religion are in power in some countries but currently there are no fundamentalists who adhere to the other religion who are in power.

    But if a proper Christian fundie were to gain power in a Western country and started to impose fundamentalist Christian values on society, you would be the first one to agree such values aren't compatible with Western societies either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All religions need fun poked at them as they are a load of balls.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    religion = choice = can be satrisied
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta + Al

    Why bring up Christianity?

    Simply dodges the question methinks.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Religion is always a troll-fest. It's very difficult to have a sensible conversation about it without somebody getting offended.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Blagsta + Al

    Why bring up Christianity?

    Simply dodges the question methinks.......

    What question? :confused: I was querying Mat's comments.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok it wasn't a question, but the issue of Islamic values being compatible with Western values (though as you point out the statement is somewhat flawed anyhow)

    I notice that people always compare Islam to Chrstianity and say 'it is just as bad' which is fair enough, but doesn't address the issue.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Blagsta + Al

    Why bring up Christianity?

    Simply dodges the question methinks.......
    Because Matadore had suggested that Islam is not compatible with Western societies.

    Had he said "religion" is not compatibile with Western societies there would have been no need to say anything. But by singleing out Islam he appears to be indicating that other religions are compatible with Western societies. And since Christianity is so similar to Islam, and moreover the 'official' or majority religion of most Western nations, it is only natural to ask.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Ok it wasn't a question, but the issue of Islamic values being compatible with Western values (though as you point out the statement is somewhat flawed anyhow)

    I notice that people always compare Islam to Chrstianity and say 'it is just as bad' which is fair enough, but doesn't address the issue.........

    I was pointing out that Mat's statement was idiotic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    . But by singleing out Islam he appears to be indicating that other religions are compatible with Western societies.

    I disagree, seeing as the thread relates to Islam in particular I see no implication of other religions being 'good' (regardless of what the poster might think) and no need to bring it up.

    All that does is dodge the issue, by constanlty contrasting to Christianity you avoid criticising Islam........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    I disagree, seeing as the thread relates to Islam in particular I see no implication of other religions being 'good' (regardless of what the poster might think) and no need to bring it up.

    All that does is dodge the issue, by constanlty contrasting to Christianity you avoid criticising Islam........
    You would have a point but for the fact that Matadore actually thinks Christianity is compatible for Western societies (I know this from a thousand exchanges on the subject we've had in the last few years) And since I also know that Christianity and Islam are also identical in their values, I'm simply challenging Matadore to explain why does he say Islam is incompatible with Western values since he does not think that of other, very similar religions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They are not 100% alike, the two religions named, i am refering to. After all, in the Islamic world, Though not every nation, but in many, the idea that Religious leaders should be the political leaders also, regardless of voting or "democracy" or elections or anything is something that can be accepted.

    Where as in the West, although there are many religious figures who enter politics, it would be unheard of really to allow someone to lead the nation with out winning some form or Democratic election.

    I know there are probably examples which prove me wrong, it is not a 100% rule, its a general observation.

    Hinduism, to name a third religion, is highly political, but with in the Democratic systems of Hindu domnated nations. religious leaders enter politics but seek to gain their positions through election and their nations democratic system.


    Sorry if this doesnt follow on properly, it just crossed my mind as i was reading.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    And since I also know that Christianity and Islam are also identical in their values,

    Actually you are wrong. Jesus (on whose words any true Christian would base their actions) stated "Love you enemies" and "Forgive those that trespass against you" etc - like the family of Anthony Walker.

    Islam instructs Muslims to kill their enemies ... that the killing of an unbeliever is a good thing etc.

    It is a gross misunderstanding of both religons to assume that they are that closely aligned in their values.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    Actually you are wrong. Jesus (on whose words any true Christian would base their actions) stated "Love you enemies" and "Forgive those that trespass against you" etc - like the family of Anthony Walker.

    Islam instructs Muslims to kill their enemies ... that the killing of an unbeliever is a good thing etc.

    It is a gross misunderstanding of both religons to assume that they are that closely aligned in their values.

    christianity is one of the few religions i can think of that teaches forgiveness and letting people be

    hate all that eye for an eye style crap
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unfortunately there are some Muslims who live in the West who instead of accepting fundamental Western values like freedom of expression wish to see the backward and archaic repression seen in many Muslim states replicated in the West. This was displayed by the behaviour of many Muslims towards Salmon Rushdie.

    Comparisons with Christianity don’t really seem relevant; to be honest they just come across as trying to excuse the behaviour of some Muslims taking away attention from them and claiming Christians are as bad, if not worse. It’s interesting because I don’t recall even the most fundamentalist Christians responding to Dan Brown in the way Muslims did to Salmon Rushdie…

    This later incident is quite disturbing. The Muslim reaction has been quite disgusting and I’m worried by the non-existence of any ‘moderate’ Muslim condemnation. The newspaper whilst has perhaps acted insensitively hasn’t done anything wrong, Muslims are free to criticise it but those that seek to threaten it or demand legal measures against it should move for such beliefs are incompatible with any civilised Western democracy. Interestingly the BBC are too cowardly to reproduce the particular offensive images from this Danish newspaper.
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