If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Options
Take a look around and enjoy reading the discussions. If you'd like to join in, it's really easy to register and then you'll be able to post. If you'd like to learn what this place is all about, head here.
Comments
If every Palestinian terrorist organisation said tomorrow that they will no longer pursue violence to achieve their goals and will commit to attempting to attain their aims solely through diplomatic and peaceful means Israeli anti-terrorist operations would cease.
International pressure on Israel would also duly increase, in accordance with the Roadmap to Peace Israel would commit to further withdrawals and a Palestinian state would materialise.
Anyway how is killing Israeli teenagers at nightclubs or Israeli housewives shopping protecting Palestinian land?
If the terrorist state of Israel which began the conflict and has continued the ethnocide and expulsion of the indigenous peoples of the land to the present day were to cease all violence, acknowledge their terrorist origins and their decades of crimes against humanity, and disavow their adherence to an ideology of group particularism for those of Jewish faith over all others, there would be no need for further Palestinian violent reprisals and a true democratic ONE STATE solution could be found to encompass all the rightful inhabitants of the land.
As such, the state of Israel has never wanted peace and therefore would never concede to such honest and pluralistic requirements.
Simple as Dis. If you can't acknowledge the guilt of the state of Israel then your claims of support for peace are just as fraudulent as those spouted by former terrorists-turned-"statesmen" themselves.
They tried that.
The result was the Israeli's dropping a fuck-oof bomb on some Civilians. Useful.
They tried other times too. The result being, unsupprisingly, Israeli Violence. Israel has broken the Cease Fires, not Palestinian Terrorists.
Both sides are in the wrong, but one is far deeper in that the other, and is still illegally occupying foregin land, not just Palestinian Land either.
There’s little point in us even discussing this. I support ideologically and politically the State of Israel; the 1947 UN Partition plan and preceding plans for a Jewish state were reasonable and necessary imo.
I believe in a two-state solution. The ‘ONE STATE’ solution you propose frightens me; what solution do you propose to those who are not 'rightful inhabitants' of the land in your eyes – and the eyes of Hamas? Do you like Palestinian fundamentalists wish to re-enact a Middle Eastern version of the Holocaust? Forced emigration of Jews?
It’s a pointless discussion, whatever the fantasies of yourself and Hamas Israel isn’t going away, Israel is staying. When your mass-murdering Hamas friends accept that there can be meaningful discussion.
Nothing about the 1947 partition plan respected the will of the indigenous and rightful owners of the land who were summarily murdered, raped, or forcibly driven from their homes to create what you again duplicitously claim is a "democratic" state. Nevermind the fact that any state based on a particularist inequality of rights for one socio-ethnic group has no valid claim to "democracy". That you endorse such only reinforces your real alignment with apartheid-styled inhumanity.
Anyone who would demonstrate true adherence to democratic principle would decry Israel for its atrocities past and present and advocate a truly pluralistic society for all, present Israelis and Palestinians. This includes a cessation of the longrunning open door immigration policy for Jews regardless of their national origins and the right of return for those wrongfully driven off their land (with full restitution and official acknowledgement of prior ethnic purging as a pillar of the Zionist agenda since it was first conceived and advocated by Herzl and Weizmann, et al.) and the embracing of equal rights for all inhabitants regardless of ethnicity.
Your precious Roadmap is a sham and always was just as was Oslo and Camp David and all prior touted "peace" plans crafted by disingenuous parties fully intentioned on maintaining the status quo and villifying the only true victims of this debacle since well before the State came into being.
I stand with those anti-Zionist Jews who recognise the truth of this sordid history and its ongoing role in ensuring there never will be a viable peace on offer, merely rhetoric for the tv cameras and PR firms to sell to a misinformed public.
The rest of your inane accusations about "my friends" are as baseless as your supposed appreciation of historic truth. Best you question the true nature of your mass-murdering terrorist bedfellows.
Care to refer to actual cases? Cause the above description was pretty vague
Lebanon in 1982. The Israeli's bombed whole blocks of flats because they're might have been Arafat and his chums in there.
And indeed the Israeli's did steal the land, driving the Palestinian peoples out through violence, threats and fear.
Thanks! They also used a fucking huge bomb for that. Also, they have repeatadley bomb Refugee camps, and used Super cobra's to attack them. See, they 'might' contain terrorists. Might.
I think all of the land Israel occupies is done so illegally... anyone know different? The UN is quite happy to overlook this, mind.
Aslong as the USA is treating Israel like a little mummys boy who can do no wrong i fear the UN won't be able to do anything especially with the US veto in things. Vetos should be erradicated anyway...but thats a tale for another time.
I'd love to see our resident apologists' response if they were to live under these brutal conditions and watch their children and their children's children (should they manage to live so long) suffer the same indignity.
And this from a people who claim eternal victimhood as their carte blanche from criticism and condemnation. How they dishonour their forebears who suffered similar dehumanisation.
Not to mention his continued refusal (though in fairness he's no different to any other Israeli PM in history) to consider withdrawing from Occupied Palestine in full. On the contrary: he has approved dozens of new expansions of the tumour-like illegal settlements plaguing the West Bank, which cancel out the Gaza withdrawal several times over.
I'll give him one thing: he's been good for zionism. His 'disengagement plan' was a cynically calculated plot to cement an Israeli foothold in the West Bank by "generously" withdrawing from Gaza. And it seems to have worked.
Even though Israel may have been formed out of illegal actions, doesn't the fact that it is now internationally accepted and mandated to exist mean it is in fact legal even if it came about illegally?
Furthermore, at present Palestine is not a "legal" established nation is it? Is it not small groups of land, states with in the nation of Israel? So, even though it does not exist now, couldnt it come into existance as its own nation at some point, even through the use of illegal actions like terror, suicide bombings etc? in essence, by making society and life in the region so dangerous and untollerable that the rest of the world has to cave in and accept the existence of such a nation?
Interestingly ironic really if you think about it and how civilisations and nations are formed.
More ironic to think that one mark of "civilisation" is to wage war in some form. Hmmm i guess thta means Switzerland are not a real civilisations...wait that can't be right...
Who cares if it's legal, they are murderers. I shoot your parents or kids and then say it's "ok" because it's legal, would you accept it?
No wonder that neither side in this conflict accepts it either.
No. See my many comments about Israel or palestine not actually existing, because no country exists. What they are both saying is that it's ok to turf people out of their houses and shoot them because of a favoured fiction. I say bullshit.
Theres no real way around escaping the fact that both "sides" are flat out fucking wrong in this dispute. Each "side" wanks on about the atrocities the other "side" has commited and then justifies it's own as self defence. And then goes and does some more.
Also, Nations can exist! You say they don't but i am in a nation that exists so that proves they do, hence facto dittum!
Really? How do you know? Ever seen a border? What colour was it? Where and when was it "created", who by and how?
Lots of reasons - including the fact that I have a piece of cardboard and paper which tells everyone I'm a citizen of it.
Yes
Different colours. Sort of grass green in some cases. Others were a concrety colour
Depends on the border doesn't it. The one between Germany and France is much more recent and created by different people than the one between England and Wales
So if I have a piece of paper proclaiming me a citizen of legoland, then legoland exists?
Anything you could see that was different about them than any other piece of concrete or grass?
Any will do, tbh.
Legoland does exist
yes it had a sign on it welcoming me to East Germany
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4881.html
What about this for West Germany. Use google or the library and you'll be able to find out even more. Amazing isn't it it what one can find out with five minute research.
Oh cool. Does it have citizens? How do you become a citizen of legoland? Any proof that it's borders exist?
So if the sign wasn't there, there would be no border? If a group of pranksters had set one up a mile further down the line, there would be two borders? If there were no signs there would be no borders and therefore no countries?
Quick question springs to mind. If you get the power to create borders from being within the previous countries borders or another countries borders, how do you make the first one?
Also, your article names no people, only "britain" "united states" etc which person is this, specifically?
I do use google. I like the pictures from space. I can't see any borders on those photographs though. Do you use special glasses or something?
What are you referring to? The British Balfour Declaration that expressed support for a Jewish homeland? The UN Partition plan 1947 that democratically approved two states; a Jewish and an Arab one? The flight of Palestinians during the 1948 war? (In which case it’s well established that there were multiple causes of Palestinian flight) Or the capture of the Disputed Territories?
The Disputed Territories prior to being under Israeli control were controlled by Egypt and Jordan; there has never been any separate Palestinian state. Although Israel does support the creation of a Palestinian state in accordance with the Roadmap to Peace. For security reasons Israel as some UN resolutions have recognised is justified in not withdrawing from all of the Disputed Territories; Israel has a right to ‘secure borders’ and withdrawal from the Disputed Territories in their entirety would put Israel at grave risk. Try and comprehend that Israel is surrounded by people extremely hostile to it. (Israel has however made clear that it will withdraw from large sections of the Disputed Territories in exchange for peace; in 2000 Israel actually offered to withdraw from 97% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza at the Camp David talks with Clinton. The Palestinians turned down the offer and didn't even make a counter-offer. Since then Sharon withdrew from Gaza and hinted at further withdrawals, the present acting Prime Minister too has stated that Israel intends to make withdrawals from the West Bank). - Meanwhile the Palestinians instead of disarming terrorist organisations in accordance with the Roadmap to Peace have expressed mass support for armed terrorist organisations through the ballot box.
Why don't you read about this conflict? It's obvious you haven't up to now. I’d suggest you check out Efraim Karsh, Avi Shlaim and Benny Morris. Morris is very balanced, Karsh leans more towards the Zionist view and Shlaim more to the Palestinian but all three are pretty reputable scholarly historians at excellent institutions.
While I’d prefer the British Foreign Office to take a more pro-Israeli line they presently take a very balanced and neutral approach recognising that there are problems on both sides. However, they’ve recognised that recently it has been the Israelis willing to compromise and the Palestinians rejecting peace in favour of demonstrating mass support for a terrorist organisation. The FCO which is made up of people far more knowledgeable on the intricacies of this conflict than me or you is a pretty credible authority on this. Certainly more so than Clandestine – who bases his opinions on conspiracy driven homemade amateur websites with nameless authors; and like any extremist targets young and impressionble people on political youth forums to spread his extreme ideology. Listen to what the FCO have to say and do a bit of reading before making ill-informed sweeping generalisations that simply aren't true.
Is just a piece of paper. Why do you support killers, thieves and liars?
Just another piece of paper. Why do you support killers, thieves and liars?
No one has the right to kill you or make you homeless, no matter how great their numbers. they have the power, but that's a different thing entirely. Why do you support killers, thieves and liars?
Who do you actually mean when you say these things. Which people, what are their names, what do they look like? Do they have kids, or dress sense? What makes them fall into one group or another? You speak as though there is some kind of telepathic link. Are you just a really really lazy thinker, or do they have a special power I don't know about?
Why do you support killers, thieves and liars?
A lie that has already been addressed and dispensed with multiple times. Pathetic that you should continue to demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty (rooted obviously in your adherence to an ideology which has been noted for its reliance on fabricated historic revisionism).
Again a lie and one which anyone interested in the truth of the matter can verify for themselves from past threads. Strike two my dishonest and desperate little nemesis.
Ideology is your forte and dependency as is your reliance upon untruth as demonstrated above. That you should call a demand for full acknowledgement of the dehumanisation, ethnocide and group particularism inherent to your abominable apartheid ideology "Extreme" only reinforces my belief in your deluded mental condition. The logical extension of the principle you endorse would clearly ally you with the former SA regime, Naziism (another former group particularist ideology taken to its extreme but essentially the same in principle) and indeed the values espoused by White Supremists in the US.
Clearly bigotted, racist militantancy against rightful landholders, the perpetual imprisonment of their progeny in concentration camp-styled bantustans and daily abuse and slaughter is normal to your warped sensibilities.
That you also presume to dictate who may or may not post on this site, repeatedly used I might add as your last refuge from having to face your own ideological duplicity, is all the more pathetic.
Unfortunately you and those few who share your misguided and anti-democratic beliefs here are the only ones making sweeping generalisations that simply arent true.
Its apparent that even your coming years of education areent going to provide you with any intellectual credibility Dis. Forcing the historic record to conform to your ideological preconceptions remains a mark of academic fraud.
Stop forcing your extreme lies on those "impressionable young minds" please.
You complain of untrue, ill-informed sweeping generalisations and yet you can't even recognise the most basic of facts: that the Territories are Occupied (and illegally occupied at that), not "Disputed".
You also speak of UN resolutions. Funny that. Every resolution I can think of (the ones that Israel's puppet the US didn't veto, that is) calls for the full and permanent withdrawal from the totality of occupied Palestine, as per 1967 borders.
It's been 40 years of vague claims about "right to security" and "securing one's borders". Whichever validity those claims ever had, they lost it decades ago.
There is no justification or excuse whatsoever for the continuing illegal occupation of the West Bank. And for as long as Israel refuses to withdraw, there will never be peace. Never. Ever.
That is what it all boils down to.
The ball is, as it has ever been, at Israel's court.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story452.html
Id also suggest you take note of the works of Dr. Alfred Lilienthal, Edward Said, Avi Shlaim (one of the supposedly "unnamed" authors I originally provided upon demand for our lying ideologue above) and Norman Finkelstein.
That should provide more than ample starting points should you be interested to dig deeper.
The foundation to Israel’s right to secure borders is in UN Resolution 242 I believe. US administrations have consistently recognised Israel’s right to secure borders, most moderate figures in the international community have recognised that Israel; a small country surrounded by hostility has a right to safe borders. It’s not an unreasonable demand, regardless Israel has displayed that it is willing to withdraw from most of the Disputed Territories. This shown by the withdrawal from Gaza and the subsequent withdrawals from the West Bank that are been actively considered, in 2000 lets not forget Israel did offer to withdraw from 97% of the West Bank. This massively generous offer was rejected by the Palestinians who did not even respond with a counter-offer, instead choosing bloodshed over peace.
Negotiation does not work by Israel making a series of painful concessions and the Palestinians making none, that is not the means to peace. Israel has bravely withdrawn from Gaza and promised further withdrawals in the West Bank. However, Israel cannot be expected to proceed with its withdrawal strategy until Palestinian terrorism ceases.
Israel imo, should make no further compromises with the Palestinians until Palestinian terrorist organisations are disarmed and the Palestinian population reject terrorism. As the Hamas win shows that hasn’t happened yet. Unless Hamas is going to revoke its call for the destruction of Israel, its support for mass-murder and seek a fresh mandate from the Palestinian people by changing its policies significantly opting for peace instead of war Israel cannot meaningfully negotiate.
Well originally it was an Island, then it was conquered by invaders a bunch of times and then split into kingdoms by the dominant kings of the time. Finally Government was formed and what territory belonged to which country was decided. If it is marked on a map it is a country until such time as something happens to change it.
For example, the Nazi invasion of the Balkans and Croat collaboration in World War 2 led to the formation of a single Yugoslavia under Tito after the war once the resistence and Red Army drove the Nazis back.
Can the UN actually impose sanction against Palestine anyway? I mean Can the UN dictate international law to what is still not even a nation? I mean surely if Palestine is told to do something by the UN like it is a UN member nation, does that not in fact give it credibilty as a nation? Surely the UN can not dictate to the "Palestinians" if they refuse to acknowledge them as a people, can it? (I know it can, i am being rhetorical to make a point).
Finally, i think it is right to say that EVERYONE on here is biased in their own ways and no one can claim to be completely right and dismissive of another views, no matter how distasteful they find them. also, i think we are mature enough to leave insults at the door on this one can't we? No one on here is 100% right or wrong really as it is such a complicated subject to discuss. Just because you support Israel doesn't mean what Israel does is right and just because you are pro-palestinian doesn't mean Israel withdrawing from everywhere would solve the problem 100%, undoubtedley violence would continue!
"It's" not an island now?
Ok, what's that got to do with us here and now? I mean the fact that Mercia etc were said to exist way back when means what to us now?
Who by, where and when, what's that got to do with us?
By who, where and when, and what's that got to do with us? Also, how do you mark out territories? I thought they already existed?
What's the difference between me drawing up a piece of paper and scribbling on it that you are within "klintockland" and these people (whoever they are) doing it?