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horizon: war on science tonight

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/war.shtml


personally i dont care if someone thinks some creator made man, however exposing children to unscientific methods in science classes can only further disenchant people from actual experimentation and reasoning

im not saying evolutionary theory as darwin put it is perfect either, it has huge flaws and lots of things we cannot explain as of yet, however using holes in knowledge as a reason to teach an 'intelligent designer', is utter bollocks and isn't science, we didn't what powered the sun exactly 100 years ago until einstein linked energy and mass, and alchemy to an large extent was a load of crap until they applied scientific methods and mathematical theory to land up at modern chemistry, which is VERY VERY coherant due to huge rigour in it's working for the past 100 years or so

all it does imo is further dumb down the masses to be told things are the way they are by our ever so trustworthy leaders
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Agree fully with the first bit, dpn't understand the link to the second bit though
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Agree fully with the first bit, dpn't understand the link to the second bit though

    oh i was just saying that just because i think ID is a load of brainwashing crock, doesn't mean i fully support darwinism, as it has it's flaws like in synbiotic relationships and co-operation between species, like apparantly it's reckoned mitochondria were initially bacteria, but animals took them in or something like that, i'm not 100% on it i just read an extract from some article
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Things is, evolutionary scientists will happily admit they don't have all the answers, that's what science is all about, asking questions and seing what shakes up.

    The intilligunt desine people start off from certainty and then find out they were right. Obviously not science.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    oh i was just saying that just because i think ID is a load of brainwashing crock, doesn't mean i fully support darwinism, as it has it's flaws like in synbiotic relationships and co-operation between species, like apparantly it's reckoned mitochondria were initially bacteria, but animals took them in or something like that, i'm not 100% on it i just read an extract from some article


    But ID isn't pushed by 'our leaders' is it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    But ID isn't pushed by 'our leaders' is it?


    cough cough USA


    anyway it encourages people to listen to bad science, cold fusion, MMR jabs causing autism et al
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    klintock wrote:
    Things is, evolutionary scientists will happily admit they don't have all the answers, that's what science is all about, asking questions and seing what shakes up.

    The intilligunt desine people start off from certainty and then find out they were right. Obviously not science.
    :lol:

    IMHO, The Intelligent design people are twonks. "OMG, science can't answer some questions we ask, that means God MUST exist!1!one!!"

    I mean, how many times has waiting a little proven Sicene is right? Oh, you can't explain my son getting ill, it must be God! Oh look, we understand Bacteria now, and have developed a cure!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Many problems in human experience are the result of
    false and inaccurate definitions of humankind premised
    in man-made religions and humanistic philosophies.

    Human knowledge is a fraction of the whole universe.
    The balance is a vast void of human ignorance. Human
    reason cannot fully function in such a void; thus, the
    intellect can rise no higher than the criteria by which it
    perceives and measures values.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think spirituality and science should be mixed in school, even if they are the equal and the opposite in their same right... However exposing children to the idea of a higher being is not bad at all as long as they are not told how to worship him.

    The idea of God is not that stupid is it? I'm sure most people are adult enough to accept that other people are entitled to their own opinion on the matter without being ridiculed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I do not like creation theory one bit. it is such a cop out of having to actually learn anything.

    its is all "oooh, God put us all here as we are!"
    What bollocks, where did the dinosaur bones come from? How do you explain away carbon dating? What about civilisation prior to the existence of Christianity eh? eh? Answer me that? What about the guys who thought the Titans or the Gods (plural) created life eh? eh?

    You can actually see fossils which show evolution taking place!

    I believe in God becaus ei have faith, but if you showed me scientific proof showing there is no God, i would accept it, but you can not prove it one way or the other hence faith! Evolution is a different kettle of fish all together. It is like Gravity...it happens, deal with it!
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    What annoys me more is that people seem to think that it's either "God just said a few magic words and humans popped out of nowhere" or "Species of monkeys evolved into humans".
    At every school I know of here, the religion teachers wouldn't even think of going against the theory of evolution. Unlike many (not too smart IMHO) people, they don't take every word in the bible as literal.
    If you asked them a question like "If we were made by God then is evolution wrong?" they'd say that "Mud, which is what the genesis says God made people from, is purely symbolic and means things that already existed." That's what makes the most sense to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well the Bible and all Holy Books are not litteral really, they are metaphorical.
    Adam and Eve is latin for man and woman, hence the adam and eve story is just saying how man and woman get together and have kids. It is not a case of there actually was just one adam and one eve who were the only people...anyway, even when your read religious doctrine it says they found other people outside of Eden.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i stand corrected.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have no problem with ID being taught, per se, but its not a serious scientific theory. If anything, its place is in the Philosophy and Religious Studies classes, where counter theories (such as Hume's and Flew's) can be put against them. I have a friend in the states, a biology student, who cringes every time he hears the term mentioned. At least he is at University where it isnt taught (yet)>
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This may sound crazy, infact i think i think i may be a little crazy, but ney mind.

    Science is just another process of thought, as in its just a theory, as is ID. Its merely one explanation of how we got to be here, just as every other civilisation on the planet has its own explanations of creation. Who's to say that our explanation is the correct one? Every religion believes that their theory of creation is the correct one, just as science believes that it has the 'correct' ideas of creation. Science believes that it is a divine truth, as do most religions, but it seems to me that the masses do not see science as another strain of thought, rather they see it as gospel, that science is superior to all other ideas and notions of existence.

    Don't get me wrong, im not a bible basher or a religious nut, i believe in science. I believe that out of all the religions and strains of thought science holds the most valid and reliable perspective on existence. It can provide us with knowledge of medicine, physics, and biology.

    Howevr i still see it as merely another strain of thought, not a superior form of knowledge ahead of religion etc, its on a par with it, it just really gets on my nerves when people claim that science is different to religion and that its better without acknowledging that all it is is another perspective as oppossed to an absolute truth, which is what people seem to see it as these days.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It maybe jut another strain of thought, except it has evidence to support it which shows creation theory of religion to be wrong.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    iguana wrote:
    Science is just another process of thought, as in its just a theory, as is ID.

    Errrr...no.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, if you want to actually see the evidence so its not just faith, look on the internet or in a biology book. I saw enough evidence at school when i was kid to prove it to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yeah but the point is, people believe in it even though they haven't seen the evidence themselves, they've just been told by people with authority that something has been scientifically proven. i myself have never seen any proof that evolution is true, i just accept it, so it's still based on faith. in that way, science is just as much based on faith as is religion, in my opinion anyway.


    you could happily go and find journal yourself if you didn't just want to take it at face value - even just reading new scientist would tell you a lot and point you in the right direction


    ID isn't a scientific theory since it uses the absense of evidence to show something....


    and to iguana, science isn't a theory it's a methodology of doing things
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    er, what would a journal prove to me exactly? if i wanted "proof" of creationism, i could read the bible. if i want "proof" of evolution, i can read a scientific journal, but it still doesn't mean that i have evidence of those things being true, only that i am reading someone else's findings. unless i carry out the scientific investigation myself, i don't have evidence of any of the facts that science claims to show us, and so my acceptance of them is based on my faith in the scientific method.


    In that situation NOTHING at all can be accepted unless you experience for it yourself. If you have to carry out a scientific investigation for everything you would never live. I can say i have faith a bullet fired from a gun into some ones head will not kill them as i have no "proof" of it unless i go and shoot someone or myself to find out.

    The whole point of science is to build on what becomes before you, hence why we are still not living in caves "discovering" fire still. We have built on what came before us to form civilisation. What is PROVEN in scientific journals is just that proof some has found and is recording for everyone to see. Thw whole concept of religion is that it is faith and nothing more, there is no proof or evidence, thats the point of why you have to have faith.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i for one believe in evolution, but i don't know it to be true.


    then that is your problem....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you don't know it to be true either. you might believe it is, but that's not the same as knowing it, and it's something no one can ever know beyond doubt.

    but no, it's not a problem. i don't lose sleep at night worrying about it.


    i think it's the most accurate description of what happens, and very accurate indeed
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    fair enough. but that's not the same as knowing it to be true; it's still just a belief, all be it one bound down by logic and reasoning.

    the best that can ever be said of any scientific theory is that as yet, it has not been disproved. no theory, scientific or otherwise, can ever be verified beyond all doubt, because that would entail a knowledge of future events that we can't ever have - at any point in the future a counter example may arise that shows our theory to be false.

    I actually agree ... maybe agnostic is the word for that frame of mind?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What about the use of electricity as a power source? or Nuclear reaction? or sulubility? or dilution?

    some science is a fact that can not be proven otherwise because it is infact already proven.

    hmmm, although, i do have to concede on evolution that if an alien ship came to earth and showed that they planted all the dinosaur bones and other such fossil remains here and we were actually here already as a homo-sapiens that would fuck up my acceptance of evolution...though it would be cool.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    What about the use of electricity as a power source? or Nuclear reaction? or sulubility? or dilution?

    some science is a fact that can not be proven otherwise because it is infact already proven.

    hmmm, although, i do have to concede on evolution that if an alien ship came to earth and showed that they planted all the dinosaur bones and other such fossil remains here and we were actually here already as a homo-sapiens that would fuck up my acceptance of evolution...though it would be cool.
    what on earth do dino bones have to do with anything?
    they are the remains of long gone creatures ...are you suggesting they are someohow linked to human evolution?
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