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Iraq

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The PNAC is shrewd and ruthless, but ideologues have historically suffered from a significant myopia regarding the consequences of their plans. When those plans are based on a continual stream of lies, they become a neverending exercise in crisis management.

    It's all on purpose.

    The whole thing is easy to work out if you ask yourself this simple question -

    What would make Israel 100% safe forever from it's neighbours?

    If all it's neighbours were dead or in chains, that would be pretty safe, wouldn't it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    The UN sucks! Simple as that! I say do away with the whole institution!
    Do you know why it sucks?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:

    If all it's neighbours were dead or in chains, that would be pretty safe, wouldn't it?

    Aye, but without using nukes it's going to be a long, dangerous struggle for israel to achieve that aim...

    This interview with benny morris - http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm - highlights the total impasse and impossibility of any lasting peace...and this is from a 'left-wing' perspective.

    It seems as if the Israelis are almost resigned to the destruction of their state, and are subsequently nihilistic enough to pull out all the plugs against the arabs knowing their situation is untenable as it is...scary stuff.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aye, but without using nukes it's going to be a long, dangerous struggle for israel to achieve that aim...

    Not if they use foreign troops to do it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For it then, for it now.

    None of the arguments any of you have come up with have changed my opinion at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Even though the opponents of the war have been proven right time after time after time after time after time...

    and the warmongers have been proven wrong time after time after time after time?

    What else would it possibly take, Matadore?

    How much more can someone be wrong before they admit it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    As for what we do now? God only knows, maybe go cap in hand to the other Western countries and beg for forgiveness and help? Though I cant see that happening.

    Why? The world's best armies are already there (with the exception of France and Israel and if you think the US are robust you ought to see how the French approach dealing with insurgents and peacekeeping).

    And its not the complete disaster critics are saying it is. Though its certainly not going as well as many people hoped there have been elections in which the majority of people voted (even those who'd previously boycotted them) and a chance of a democratic Government composed of differing factions working for the good of all Iraqis.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Do you know why it sucks?

    Yes i do!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you? So you agree the problem lies with Right to Veto the 5 permanent members of the Security Council have.

    And you agree that right of veto should be removed immediately- and even the 5 permanent members should be no more.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone who supports the war now is obviously blinded by pure patriotic nationalism and enshrouded with denial...matadores type exactly. Any decent normal person who may have supported the war previously will obviously say it's a shambles and was a wrong move now.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes i know the VETO power of the perminant members is one reason why the UN as an institution fails as it means things can not be done. But with out those rights to VETO we would be forced to fight world war three with no choice as by international law China would have ot be forcibly removed from Tibet and Russia from Chechnya and America and Britain from Iraq, etc, etc. So in the current climate the VETO is probably the only thing preventing international law ruining everything for us all.

    No, the solution is a complete overhaul to the UN as an institution, including removing the endless amounts of Red Tape that keeps anything productive been carried out like Aid and helping the collapsed nations of Africa with medical relief and food relief and reconstruction so Aid is no longer needed and weapons to the region can be prevented from been sold there. But also a huge re-write is needed of International Law as those laws were written in the Post-World War Two and emerging Cold War climates and in many ways are redundant now.

    Though the whole concept is redundant as any re-write to international law or changed to membership of the UN or its system of activity would needed unanimous agreement which will never happen and even if every other nation did some how manage to reach a consensus the perminant members of the Security Council would VETO such a motion anyway.

    Best to do away with the UN and International Law altogether.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    None of the arguments any of you have come up with have changed my opinion at all.

    And what exactly are your arguments in support of the war then?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Best to do away with the UN and International Law altogether.
    Your post was going so well, and then you closed it down with that sentence...

    That's precisely what all the tyrants in the world (and the US government of G.W. Bush) would want.

    So they can kill, torture, invade and bomb with impunity.

    You don't believe in human rights then do you?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sure I believe in Human Rights, But clearly no government on earth does unless it gives them an excuse to invade a nation they have an interest in.

    No one cares about Tibet, Chechnya, Rwanda, Somalia, North Korea or anywhere else when Human Rights are breached. No one does anything about saving lives and when they do it usually costs lives such as with bad sanctions or idiotic bombing or poor invasions.

    If there was an actual solution that the UN could use i would be all for it, but as no reforms will ever take place, why not try radical solutions for a change. If all the world was interacting treaties and agreements as opposed to a talking shop where they bullshitted each other for days on end through Red Tape and excuses, maybe there is chance actual things would happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Law is an opinion backed by guns.

    The Un has less guns than the US, therefore it's opinions mean fuck all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Your post was going so well, and then you closed it down with that sentence...

    That's precisely what all the tyrants in the world (and the US government of G.W. Bush) would want.

    So they can kill, torture, invade and bomb with impunity.

    You don't believe in human rights then do you?

    The UN and international law are largely irrelevent to the US anyway. The US is the only nation to be declared the world's only terrorist state by the world court after the bombing of nicaragua, various countries have sought to take legal action against the US, nothing comes of it. It's absolutely pointless.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who would force the US to pay reperations anyway? Who would impose sanctions against them? No one, thats why they are a Superpower and no one else is. They can do what they want, when they want because they can.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The US economy (like most others actually) is rather fragile and dependant on stability. If all other major players- the EU countries, Japan, China and a few other nations- where to impose trade sanctions, the US would be in a world of bother.

    The other countries' economies would also be damaged though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is that bloody catch 22, the fucking Dr Strangelove problem of changing thw world!

    We will have a bunch of former Nazi scientists in wheelchairs pretending to be good old boys making doomsday weapons next!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do you think so many of them found safe haven in the US? ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do you think so many of them found safe haven in the US? ;)

    Because the USSR didn't get them first?
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    NQA wrote:
    Because the USSR didn't get them first?
    :lol:

    And we all know who got the best ones, anyway. Because I beleive they got into space first... (then again, they did get all the stuff like the Skoda factory, and all the mad german industry.)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    :lol:

    And we all know who got the best ones, anyway. Because I beleive they got into space first... (then again, they did get all the stuff like the Skoda factory, and all the mad german industry.)

    Yeah, but the spams got Werner von Braun -admittedly there was a delay in the space programme whilst they tried to persaude hin that they wanted their rockets to stay up rather than end up crashing down on London
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    NQA wrote:
    Yeah, but the spams got Werner von Braun -admittedly there was a delay in the space programme whilst they tried to persaude hin that they wanted their rockets to stay up rather than end up crashing down on London

    True... the Biggest part though for the USSR was probably Military Tech - Grabbing all the Military stuff they could while the US grabbed scientists that fled those angry Soviets (who can blame them? They were a brutal bunch of soldeirs.)

    And us Brits just carried as we always do.
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