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Fur

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    A fox knows what it's doing too, you know.

    In the same way that a human does? Are you sure?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    There is a difference though. Humans have this thing called "free will" and "self awarenesss".

    Well, free will is debatable. But self-awareness still doesn't mean we should completely distance ourselves from our instincts.

    I'm totally against cruelty to animals, but i don't have a problem with killing for meat or even for fur providing it's humane and doesn't threaten extinction. That's the correct balance between human priviledge & human awareness imo.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Well, free will is debatable. But self-awareness still doesn't mean we should completely distance ourselves from our instincts.

    I'm totally against cruelty to animals, but i don't have a problem with killing for meat or even for fur providing it's humane and doesn't threaten extinction. That's the correct balance between human priviledge & human awareness imo.

    I have no problem with killing for meat either. I do think that killing for sport is wrong though. How sporting is shooting something with a high powered telescopically sited rifle anyway?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I have no problem with killing for meat either. I do think that killing for sport is wrong though. How sporting is shooting something with a high powered telescopically sited rifle anyway?

    Just like kicking a ball is...some people find it enjoyable, some don't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I have no problem with killing for meat either. I do think that killing for sport is wrong though. How sporting is shooting something with a high powered telescopically sited rifle anyway?

    Did I say it was? :confused:

    It's killing for the sake of killing. Don't agree with that, it ain't sport. Hunting with, say, a flintlock would be different though.

    Some animals are the natural friends of man - cats, dogs etc. Others aren't, and i don't really have a huge problem with certain types of hunting as sport. I see it as part of the natural order. It's worth noting that a lot of fox hunters, people who shoot birds etc are also very dedicated conservationists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    Just like kicking a ball is...some people find it enjoyable, some don't.

    Difference being that you don't kill anything kicking a ball.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Difference being that you don't kill anything kicking a ball.

    Well footballs used to be made form pig skin but that's not relevant now.

    Anyway, still doesn't matter, it's still a sport. Humans have a knack for killing things, from spiders to cows to ourselves. Certain people enjoy shooting animals for sport...what can ya do?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    You what? Have you ever been in the countryside?

    Have you seen foxes, who will break into a field, kill every lamb in it, and not eat a single one of them? Or move the bodies once they're dead. Foxes do that on a regular basis, they are murdering vermin. Lets not pretend otherwise.
    That is little more than a Countryside Alliance-spread myth, and a highly distorted and exaggerated version of what actually happens.

    I thought you would have known as much.

    Have you seen cats, who will bring home mouse after mouse, and not eat a single one of them?
    Yes I have seen it. I have two cats. Do you actually know why they do it?
    Animals hunt for fun, just as humans do. It's human nature, animal instinct. Life.
    Rubbish. Animals do not kill for fun. A few kill animals even though they don't eat them. But that is due to a mixture of factors including overwhelming basic animal instinct.

    A twat paying several thousand quid so he can fly to South Africa, shoot a lion and then hang a picture in his office of himself holding his big gun in front of the dead animal has precisely fuck all to do with any kind of instinct.

    How could you pretend otherwise?

    And what of cases where animals are not simply hunted but used otherwise? Do you approve of cock and dog fighting? And if not, why not?

    As for the rest of your postings, what?

    When you eat a steak you've made a conscious decision that your nice dinner is more important than Daisy's life. That bacon sandwich this morning was more important than Porky staying alive. When you eat meat you make a conscious decision that your taste buds are more important than the life of an animal. It's that simple.

    Like it or not, your roast chicken, your chorizo and your rump steak is all about vanity and egotism. You have decided that your nice meal is worth more than the animal's life. The difference between that and deciding that looking good and being warm is worth more than an animals life? None.

    What is the difference between eating and wearing Porky? You don't need to eat Porky, a bowl of muesli would have sufficed for breakfast. Eating meat is not important- otherwise we wouldn't be here now. Even fifty years ago meat on the table was a treat, a luxury, for most people- they survived on potatoes and vegetables for the most part.

    Are you saying that you cannot live on the same diet your ancestors did? If not, why not?

    If the animal was endangered that was wrong, for the protection of the species. But if it wasn't then there is nothing wrong with wearing a monkey's skin, in exactly the same way there is nothing wrong with my toasty warm suede and sheepskin gloves.

    Eating meat is just as much about vanity as wearing animals. Do you seriously think the animal gives a toss why it's just been killed- do you think it feels better because it was eaten? If not, how can you justify your hypocritical opposition to some animals dying, and not others.

    Animals dying, and animals being treated cruelly, are two entirely separate things.
    What makes you think that just because some people eat meat they have no right to comment on the welfare of animals?

    Would it be hypocritical of my to complain about cockfighting then? Yeah right...

    You keep missing the point that even if human beings could survive without eating meat, eating itself is the single most basic human need. Hunting for entertainment is not a need of any kind by any stretch of the imagination.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Well, free will is debatable. But self-awareness still doesn't mean we should completely distance ourselves from our instincts.

    I'm totally against cruelty to animals, but i don't have a problem with killing for meat or even for fur providing it's humane and doesn't threaten extinction. That's the correct balance between human priviledge & human awareness imo.
    I would agree with you up to the fur point. Mankind doesn't need seal or mink fur at all. But other than that I agree with the statement.

    However earlier you said you had no problem with sombody killing an ape so they can sell their hands as ashtrays.

    Do you really think that is acceptable?
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Aladdin wrote:
    That is little more than a Countryside Alliance-spread myth, and a highly distorted and exaggerated version of what actually happens.

    You ever kept birds? We used to, and we've had a fox get in the field and kill 18 out of 23 birds. In the morning we found dird birds lying everywhere, completely uneaten.
    A very true story no distorted or exaggerated in the slightest.
    Weekender Offender 
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Aladdin wrote:
    Mankind doesn't need seal or mink fur at all.

    You don't actually need to eat meat either.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote:
    You don't actually need to eat meat either.

    Actually, I do. Its why I stopped being veggie. I can't digest plant fibre very well or absorb much protein from it. I'm a lot healthier eating meat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    What makes you think that just because some people eat meat they have no right to comment on the welfare of animals?

    .
    I think you DO have a right to comment on animal welfare whether you eat meat or not, but if you DO eat meat, then its a bit much to say other people killing animals for their own purposes is wrong.
    Worry about how the animals are treated when theyre alive rather than what they do with the carcasses once theyve been deaded.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Blagsta wrote:
    Actually, I do. Its why I stopped being veggie. I can't digest plant fibre very well or absorb much protein from it. I'm a lot healthier eating meat.

    The point is that most people in Western countries don't need to.

    And I see very little wrong with sport shooting either as long as the quarry is eaten, worn or being culled.
    People harp on about shooting yet these animals being shot have it better than any of the animals on the supermarket shelf.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote:
    People harp on about shooting yet these animals being shot have it better than any of the animals on the supermarket shelf.
    I think thats a really important point. I tend to buy 80% of my meat and dairy free-range or organic for the quality of life aspect alone, even tho it is a bit more expensive. its my concession for eating the poor bastards in the first place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    That is little more than a Countryside Alliance-spread myth, and a highly distorted and exaggerated version of what actually happens.

    I thought you would have known as much.

    It's not though.

    My wife is from rural Cumbria, her mates are all farmers daughters. It IS what happens, despite the anti-hunt lobby trying to claimj that foxes are all cute and fluffy-wuffy.
    A twat paying several thousand quid so he can fly to South Africa, shoot a lion and then hang a picture in his office of himself holding his big gun in front of the dead animal has precisely fuck all to do with any kind of instinct.

    But it is to do with instinct.

    By nature, humans are hunters. For many people, hunting gives them the buzz, the thrill, that instinct wants.

    I'm not in favour of hunting because I happen to think its needlessly cruel, but there is a buzz in killing something.
    What makes you think that just because some people eat meat they have no right to comment on the welfare of animals?

    They have every right to complain about the welfare of animals- if animals are being treated cruelly, that is abhorrent.

    They don't have a right to complain about the death of animals for human gain if they eat dead animals for human gain. Surely that much is obvious?
    You keep missing the point that even if human beings could survive without eating meat, eating itself is the single most basic human need. Hunting for entertainment is not a need of any kind by any stretch of the imagination.

    Hunting for entertainment isn't a need, but hunting grouse, pheasants or deer isn't exclusively for entertainment, is it? Hunted wild venison is gorgeous, so is wild game.

    Wearing fur to keep warm is as much a necessity as eating steak to keep fed. There are alternatives to both.

    I happen to agree with Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall on this matter. It is vitally important that people remember where meat comes from. The second the link between the cow and the steak is broken, the supermarkets and the factory farms can get away with the most abhorrent treatment because people don't consider them.

    I don't believe that animals are skinned alive, because its very hard to keep them still, which can seriously damage the skin. A slip of the knife ruins the fur.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    won't buy anything from IAMS .
    i won't buy their scientific shite cos my dog doesn't even recognise it as food!
    having got the stuff and the dog not eating it i thought well starve you buggar ...you'll eat it when your hungry enough.
    she didn't.
    i had to chuck it and my dog will eat almost anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I would agree with you up to the fur point. Mankind doesn't need seal or mink fur at all. But other than that I agree with the statement.

    However earlier you said you had no problem with sombody killing an ape so they can sell their hands as ashtrays.

    Do you really think that is acceptable?

    I'd say killing gorrillas to make an ashtrays is a frivellous waste. I'd say it's going too far. But to kill mink for fur? I don't have such a problem. As people have said on here, genuine fur is warmer, looks nicer etc - i'd say that provides better justification. It's an improvement on man-made fibre, whereas using gorrillas' hand as an ashtray serves no real purpose.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if the animal aint on an endangered list then ...eat it wear it.
    wearing fur is environmentaly good ...weasring man made fibres ...is seriously damiging to the planet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the meat trade is quite cruel too. I dont know if anyone here cares/realises
    Anybody who's eats a lot of MacDonalds, KFC or Burger King has no place saying they support animal rights or the environment in my opinion.

    Personally I'm not against people eating meat, but I don't eat it myself. I think you should be prepared to kill something yourself if you're going to eat it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    agree on the last part

    but imo as long as the long term future of a species isnt threatened, i think we really do have the right to do what we want with animals, nothings perfect in that sense but its realistic
    So it's Ok to flush a puppy down a toilet or kill a horse for fun?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    You what? Have you ever been in the countryside?

    Have you seen foxes, who will break into a field, kill every lamb in it, and not eat a single one of them? Or move the bodies once they're dead. Foxes do that on a regular basis, they are murdering vermin. Lets not pretend otherwise.
    Have you seen cats, who will bring home mouse after mouse, and not eat a single one of them?
    This may sound wierd... But cats leave dead mice for you because they see you as their kittens, it's psychological. My cat brings her toy in to the living room and drops it there and calls to us as if we're her kittens. It's cute. Cats are carniverous.

    As for foxes killing for fun, they actually don't. If the opportunity is there they will drag off their prey (for example with chickens) and hide it, if they're disturbed they will leave.

    Chimps kill for fun though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This may sound wierd... But cats leave dead mice for you because they see you as their kittens, it's psychological. My cat brings her toy in to the living room and drops it there and calls to us as if we're her kittens. It's cute. Cats are carniverous.

    Kind of true, yeah.

    When my mum's cat knows it's been naughty and got told off, it goes out and brings a mouse back to say sorry. It's quite sweet, but obviously I'd rather not have to smash the mouse in to put it out of its misery.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Kind of true, yeah.

    When my mum's cat knows it's been naughty and got told off, it goes out and brings a mouse back to say sorry. It's quite sweet, but obviously I'd rather not have to smash the mouse in to put it out of its misery.
    Yeah... Cats kill humanely though I think, especially big cats asthey go for the throat. My cat is (was... she's old now) less cruel than say... A factory farm.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah... Cats kill humanely though I think, especially big cats asthey go for the throat. My cat is (was... she's old now) less cruel than say... A factory farm.

    Not really. I've seen cats toying with mice.

    And yes, whilst they often will bring dead animals back as 'gifts' they will also pile them up uneaten under hedges etc for no apparent reason.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Not really. I've seen cats toying with mice.

    And yes, whilst they often will bring dead animals back as 'gifts' they will also pile them up uneaten under hedges etc for no apparent reason.
    Storing them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for foxes killing for fun, they actually don't. If the opportunity is there they will drag off their prey (for example with chickens) and hide it, if they're disturbed they will leave.

    .
    thing is with foxes and chickens ...your chickens are actualy safer when they are free range.
    the fox will come round and grab one now and again and be off with it.
    if the fox gets into an enclosure full of chickens ...the chickens go mental ...start flapping and screaming ...so the fox kills them all or as many as possible in panic ...or just to shut the fuckers up ...seriously.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mice ...did you know they can collapse their skull?
    your chasing one around the room ...it runs directly at the wall and turns invisible!
    in reality it collapses its skull and disapears under what looks like an impossible gap for it get through between floor and skirting ...all faster than your eye can follow ...amazing innit!
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