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Culture + Poverty = Crime???

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought this thread was about ghetto culture and not blacks as a whole?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's not what a number of the posts within imply, a talking about the 'black community' as the first post does isn't the same thing as talking about ghetto culture.

    If people are just talking about it then they should stop to think when they post and make sure that's what they are actually saying.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    And exactly how am I supposed to read that in any other way other than you believe black people spend their time doing those things.

    Perhaps by reading it in context, with the essay just above.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly, certain people here are choosing to read one line and then reply and ignore entire context, like whole long explanaitions that so many of us do to put thing sin context and explain it is NOT about ALL black people! Why the fuck is it so hard for people looking for a bandwaggon of naming and shaming racists to get through there heads.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its ridiculus to claime that the Welsh, Scots, Irish and northern English have had anything like slavery experience of Black people.

    Having kids removed from their parents, being denied a name of their own, givern a christian "white" name instead, having to endure the passage over, the tree they had to walk round 7 times so they would forget who they were and become a slave. As well as the more recient segregation and blatent racism by those in power alll over the world.

    The Scots, Irish and northern English were oppressed much longer ago and not a huge amount differently from the way poor southern english people were also oppressed. Then ironicaly those same Scots, Irish and northern English were the workers on the slave trade oversears on the plantation and their descendents founded the Klu Klux Klan.

    You sound like a nice middle class white boy who's never met a black person who has totaly polliticaly correct views, but whos just been mugged by some black guys or threatened by them or some negative experience and sudenly your whole opinon changes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its ridiculus to claime that the Welsh, Scots, Irish and northern English have had anything like slavery experience of Black people.

    Having kids removed from their parents, being denied a name of their own, givern a christian "white" name instead, having to endure the passage over, the tree they had to walk round 7 times so they would forget who they were and become a slave. As well as the more recient segregation and blatent racism by those in power alll over the world.

    The Scots, Irish and northern English were oppressed much longer ago and not a huge amount differently from the way poor southern english people were also oppressed. Then ironicaly those same Scots, Irish and northern English were the workers on the slave trade oversears on the plantation and their descendents founded the Klu Klux Klan.

    You sound like a nice middle class white boy who's never met a black person who has totaly polliticaly correct views, but whos just been mugged by some black guys or threatened by them or some negative experience and sudenly your whole opinon changes.

    The Irish forefathers founded the KKK? Funny, saying that Catholics were one of the KKK's targets.

    Also, a lot blacks taken over to America were already slaves in Africa itself.

    Irish Catholics also suffered similar degradations. Look into the Penal Laws and the actions of Oliver Cromwell.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its ridiculus to claime that the Welsh, Scots, Irish and northern English have had anything like slavery experience of Black people.

    Not being funny, but neither do any currently living black people. The ones who were slaves are all dead.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its ridiculus to claime that the Welsh, Scots, Irish and northern English have had anything like slavery experience of Black people.

    Having kids removed from their parents, being denied a name of their own, givern a christian "white" name instead, having to endure the passage over, the tree they had to walk round 7 times so they would forget who they were and become a slave. As well as the more recient segregation and blatent racism by those in power alll over the world.

    The Scots, Irish and northern English were oppressed much longer ago and not a huge amount differently from the way poor southern english people were also oppressed. Then ironicaly those same Scots, Irish and northern English were the workers on the slave trade oversears on the plantation and their descendents founded the Klu Klux Klan.

    You sound like a nice middle class white boy who's never met a black person who has totaly polliticaly correct views, but whos just been mugged by some black guys or threatened by them or some negative experience and sudenly your whole opinon changes.
    kermit has seriously lost the plot or is showing a side we never saw before.
    what i actualy think it is ...he is working in the legal proffesion.
    a proffesion full of people who are so seriously opinionated as to be scary.
    these well paid and self important idiots are influencing kermit whilst looking down their noses at him.
    those in the legal proffesion often speak to ...and about people ...in the manner blagsta posts.
    i would pressume blagsta doesn't speak to people the way he posts but ...any of you lot had drinks with the legal set?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im thinking socially, the UK used to be like that. If we go back, humans were 'wild animals' so to speak, we went around and did things which are not acceptable in our society. As we went on, all civilizations got law and order. However, in Africa and such (where often tribes were small rather than huge countries), they hadn't developed their law systems as much as europe.

    Then there was slavery, and they were seen as a sub class. How can a sub class have its own law and order? They were thrown right back to caveman days, survival of the fittest. Many didn't survive atlantic crossings or treatment by slave owners.

    Meanwhile, around the 1900s, the UK has stamped out a lot of petty crime, the police force is pretty well established, etc. - still a hotbed of crime relative to today, however.

    Then the abolishment of slavery. However, consider this: european and american society had viewed 'negros' (a term used to animalise them almost, like livestock) as not even human, practically. Trying to integrate these two cultures where there is no love lost has proved incredibly difficult, with racial tensions still around today.

    So finishing up my argument: the reason I think 'black' culture appears more violent, is because it is still suffering from a lack of integration into popular culture, and so hasn't adopted the norms of socialisation and law and order. If we consider a naked human, with no socialisation, what is the law to them? The law is a construct of society, not a natural thing, and even people in popular culture these days can have trouble going along with it. So another culture altogether, which has its own ideas of law and order, which has frequently met barriers to integration, well its only common sense (to me) that there is difficulty in respecting law and order.

    I think its the same with some teenagers as well, its not listening to rap music, its when they arent given positive experiences to allow them to form socially into a productive and happy member of society, they become a social deviant, so to speak.

    I think Ive gone on long enough though :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im thinking socially, the UK used to be like that. If we go back, humans were 'wild animals' so to speak, we went around and did things which are not acceptable in our society. As we went on, all civilizations got law and order. However, in Africa and such (where often tribes were small rather than huge countries), they hadn't developed their law systems as much as europe.

    Somali customary law is probably the most advanced on the planet.

    Law isn't the same as order. Most humans are by nature orderly and don't need law.

    Good post though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Not being funny, but neither do any currently living black people. The ones who were slaves are all dead.
    But you still have to consider things like segregation, which I'm sure a lot of black people do remember well. But then you could use the same argument for Jewish people too. Okay, they may not have the obvious visual difference (i.e. different colour skin) to the majority of people in the country, but as a culture, they've had to put up with more than their fair share of prejudice. And you can't argue that the first Jews that arrived in America didn't live on extremely low incomes and in extreme poverty.
    A lot of people have asked whether there is such a thing as 'black culture,' and I believe there is. If you look at music again for example, early rap discusses issues specifically related to black people living in a predominantly white country. It transcends any country's boundaries (thought I'd put that in just for Klintock), and therefore almost any black person can relate to it just because they are black. If you look at Africa itself, people living there must share some of this feeling of persecution, from having their languages/land/everything else taken from them. Of all the ethnic minorities, asian, indian/pakistani, middle-eastern, Africans are the only one's who seem to still be getting shafted by "the west." There is still evidence of abuses in Africa (South Africa, for example), whereas in other parts of the world, it is perhaps not so fresh in the mind.

    I don't know, I'm just pulling this crap of the top of my head, it's late.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Somali customary law is probably the most advanced on the planet.

    Law isn't the same as order. Most humans are by nature orderly and don't need law.

    Good post though.
    Was that the one on that Bob Geldof programme, where the stock exchange consisted of piles of American dollars in the street, and the understanding was if you steal any you get shot?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://www.econgov.org/articles/xeer.shtml

    Somali customary law. There is no legislation in it at all. Have a read, because it's quite interesting how they manage without -

    The institutions of the Somali customary law are the judges and the courts of law they spontaneously form whenever there is a conflict. The Somalis have no legislature, no standing police force and army, no prisons and no standing administration.
    But you still have to consider things like segregation, which I'm sure a lot of black people do remember well.

    I feel and banged my knee when i was 4 years old. It left a scar. And? So fucking what? The past does not equal the future.
    But then you could use the same argument for Jewish people too

    You could use it for everyone. Everybody has fought through difficulties. It's called life.

    Some may have been worse than others, but guess what, they are over now so it's time to get to work and move on.
    If you look at music again for example, early rap discusses issues specifically related to black people living in a predominantly white country.

    And these rapists all have an encyclopaedic knowledge of rap music do they? Don't talk daft, man.

    Whatever. My point is that there is an assumption that you have a shared set of ideas and experiences just because of where you live and/or some physical/religious/cultural events. Ridiculous. Most people are woefully ignorant of history and couldn't give a shit as long as they are well fed and warm.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Course they don't. But it could be just one of the contributory factors to an us vs. them attitude, or a feeling of victimisation, which could lead to a disrespect for the law (i.e. crime). Like it or not, people do group themselves with people similar to themselves for whatever reason, especially when they are being persecuted. Do all black criminals remember segregation and think about it when they're commiting crime? No. But have they had to put up with something they percieve as persicution (racism, poverty etc) which could allow them to relate to ideas of persecution on a much grander scale? I think their is such as thing as a shared set of ideas that can be prominant in a culture, when you consider that parents pass ideas on to their children, who pass it onto their neighbours etc. More so in close-knit communities, where lower standards of education can result in parents and friends being a persons main source of ideas. Does it mean every black person feels this way? No. Is it significant enough to create an imbalance between different races frequency when commiting certain type of crime? Possibly.

    Your reply seemed to suggest that I'm somehow attempting to justify these things as valid reasons for robbing/murdering/raping etc. I'm just trying to discover what the motivation for this crime is that is unique to black people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But it could be just one of the contributory factors to an us vs. them attitude, or a feeling of victimisation

    So check. Hi, mr. murderer I just want to check your record collection and bookshelf to see if you have...oh no you listen to Kenny G and read gay pron, nm....
    Like it or not, people do group themselves with people similar to themselves for whatever reason

    Most humans instinctively copy others. It's the basic way we learn.
    I think their is such as thing as a shared set of ideas that can be prominant in a culture, when you consider that parents pass ideas on to their children, who pass it onto their neighbours etc.

    Can be. Doesn't have to be. Try looking up meme theory on Google for a detailed analysis of how ideas come and go. In order for an idea to be held right now, it has to have some use, right now. We don't talk about the voluminous ether these days, it's a dead idea. So, if the idea of persecution or whatnot is held currently by someone then it must have some use to them at the present time.
    Your reply seemed to suggest that I'm somehow attempting to justify these things as valid reasons for robbing/murdering/raping etc. I'm just trying to discover what the motivation for this crime is that is unique to black people.

    The question I would ask is what other links between people aren't we looking at? Perhaps all rapists are 5 foot 4 or eat three shredded wheat. By accepting fixed views we always miss out on other stuff that's happening. Perhaps they all have a V(e) A(i) V(i) -> action strategy, no one would know though, because no one is looking for it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    But that idea doesn't stand up to much scrutiny either.

    Otherwise why don't the Welsh, Scots, Irish and northern English spend their days raping and murdering each other?

    The choice of target could sometimes show a racist influence- particularly the way young Asian men target blonde teenage girls for group rape- but other than that, I don't really think it does.

    Aye, but there is still harsh feeling between the irish, english, scots to extent that paramilitaries are still active.

    Plus, the race industry is everywhere - American blacks are reminded of slavery continually, racism is a huge issue, so it's reasonable to believe that it's rooted deeply in the psyche of many blacks...whose lives are still shaped by the legacy of slavery.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kermit has seriously lost the plot or is showing a side we never saw before.

    It's called using a bit of poetic licence.

    Something is causing people to go out and rob people, and knife them in the head afterwards. Something is causing people to go out and shoot anyone they don't like. Gangland gun crime in many cities is out of control, especially in London and Nottingham. Something is causing it.

    I've been very careful to not say that race causes crime, because it doesn't.

    But something is causing certain communities to have a far larger problem with lawlessness, and senseless murder. A culture that celebrates death- kill to be in our gang- is, in my opinion, something that drives it along.

    Environment influences people. But I don't think that in this case it is poverty that is the environmental factor.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Something is causing people to go out and rob people, and knife them in the head afterwards. Something is causing people to go out and shoot anyone they don't like. Gangland gun crime in many cities is out of control, especially in London and Nottingham. Something is causing it.

    I think you've got this the wrong way around.

    Something is not stopping these people.

    Anyone can go and kill someone else. It's easy, mechanically speaking. But they don't. So, what's in the heads of the people who don't kill others that's missing from those who do?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    It's called using a bit of poetic licence.

    Something is causing people to go out and rob people, and knife them in the head afterwards.
    One case. One group of lowlife scum. Not 'people'.

    When it happens a hundred times, we can try to make something of it.
    Something is causing people to go out and shoot anyone they don't like. Gangland gun crime in many cities is out of control, especially in London and Nottingham.
    If you ever get tired of your job Kermit, you could do worse than seek employment writing headlines for the Mail and the Express.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    humans were 'wild animals' As we went on, all civilizations got law and order. However, in Africa and such (where often tribes were small rather than huge countries), they hadn't developed their law systems as much as europe.


    :p
    i get the impression your saying black people are behind in evolutionary development ...more like animals than us white folk?
    very misgiuded thinking ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Would anyway say Whites were superior when European Kingdoms conquered Africa and divided up and enslaved many of the African people?
    I mean we had guns and tactics and other advantages...were we a superior "breed" OR was it that the white men merely had superior technology?
    Was it evolution that has left Africa as a continent a controlled, enslaved, manipulated warzone OR has it been one of technological break throughs???

    Now thats a debate!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not really.

    Worldwide European power in the last three centuries or so has been based primarily on their technical achievements as well as the kind of societal systems and economies that has allowed these to flourish.

    Japan for example is the only non-western country to rival Europeans in terms of power and the reasn for this is that they were the first non-European power to undergo an industrial revolution that afforded them the industrial and technological capability to rival the Europeans.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i get the impression your saying black people are behind in evolutionary development ...more like animals than us white folk?
    very misgiuded thinking ...

    Not at all. What I meant, due to circumstances, 'civilization' as a seperate entity from homo sapeins has developed at a different rate. The first civilization I beleive was in ethiopia, was it babylon? I cant remember now to be honest.

    Then there was eygpt, the great civilization. Rome. Britain. America. All pioneering in how 'big' they can be, I would say american civilization conquers the globe pretty much socially. With each successive generation, things like science, medicine, law and order, agriculture have all improved. However in places where they arent the leading civilization, relatively speaking, crime and punishment could be argued to be worse.

    Im being all hypothetical anyway, because for all we know, there's more violent crimes in the UK and America than there are in Africa. I just dont know the figures.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah civilisations, Egypt was ancient before Babylon was even formed.
    Then there was the great Aryan migration away from North Africa towards Scandinavia.
    Ah society, immigration, social development, such a vibrant debate!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mesopotamia meaning between the two rivers The Tigris and Euphrates, in what is now Iraq, Bablyon I think came later but in the same place here is some more info

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

    This was susposed to be the birthplace of civilisation the first writern record keeping the first writen laws, the originator of the phrase that became to be known as "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth"
    Modern crops mostly have their closest wild ancestors in that region, perhaps proof this was the first agriculture.

    Perhaps this fact compared to the modern Iraq gives an insite into the power of culture, verses "race" or genetics
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, I believe the Summerians were the first people to have a civilisation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps this fact compared to the modern Iraq gives an insite into the power of culture, verses "race" or genetics


    How so? I find all this fascinating, History is my hobby you see, but i am not quite sure what you are saying.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    How so? I find all this fascinating, History is my hobby you see, but i am not quite sure what you are saying.

    Well Im saying that now Iraq has a much more represive culture, with as we all know murders bombings taking etc taking place.

    But those same people thousands of years ago did perhaps the cleverest thing any groupe of people have ever done and formed a civilisation.

    So the same people with different cultures can produce very different results in tearms of their society and technological advancment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting notion, but they are not the same people really. Thousands of years of human evolution, the Aryan migration, the development of other cultures nearby and never ending conquest by superior civilisations have made the region what it is, and remember that first civilisation was only one little spec in the country, where as now it is one huge country.
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