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musluims unhappy over veil ban at imperial college

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4620034.stm

haha i'm gonna set up a religion that says all members have to walk around naked, and anyone who disagrees you can piss on :lol:

i don't personally believe in extorting a profit from goods yet i still pay more than the manufacturing costs for what i buy, simply because the rest of society is prepared to

they are allowed headscarves, just not allowed to cover their faces up entirely


pointless whingers should shut up
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think they should have some respect for security
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What purpose does this serve?

    Absolutely none that i can think of.

    This will only cultivate further Islamic hatred of our society...do they not realise this? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    What purpose does this serve?

    Absolutely none that i can think of.

    This will only cultivate further Islamic hatred of our society...do they not realise this? :confused:


    erm many universities have depts which are big and flowing but also have some dangerous equipment, my university used to have a 'hot room' full of radioactive material (had to shut down the university for a week to remove the material and seal it off), my depts labs have bench strength chemicals, which can happily dissolve flesh if misused etc

    i can wander in and out because they know im a student there now, new students have to present their ID cards to enter the building at begining of term, and if you want entry to building after 6(with a good reason) also

    also the university doesnt want non-students using their resources for free

    why should a religion be exempt from a fair rule that just stops people using facilities without showing their face - they can wear whatever the hell they like, just show their face - that is the most important point

    if anyone feels alienated by this, it's their problem, not the universities
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with France's position on this one.

    No religious attire at school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    What purpose does this serve?

    Absolutely none that i can think of.

    This will only cultivate further Islamic hatred of our society...do they not realise this? :confused:
    Well you know these muslims. Always up to something. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, if you're going down this route, then surely it should be an offense to wear such attire in a bank also, since the same applies to motorcycle helmets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm with France's position on this one.

    No religious attire at school.


    not quite, this isn't school - it has 'adults' there, however you can wear what you want, they just want to be sure, you are the person you say you are?


    in an exam for example, the person covers their face so you cant match to their uni ID card, would it be right to kick them out because it could be someone else taking the exam for them? of course it would - it's just an extention of that
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    why should a religion be exempt from a fair rule that just stops people using facilities without showing their face - they can wear whatever the hell they like, just show their face - that is the most important point

    if anyone feels alienated by this, it's their problem, not the universities

    People with veils would still be identified by security guards if they're accessing dangerous chemicals surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    People with veils would still be identified by security guards if they're accessing dangerous chemicals surely?


    theres security at the entrance of the building, and to my knowledge i have yet to see a muslim cover up their entire face...


    i'm not a muslim, however if i had the personal belief that i should cover and idsguise everything that makes me stand out as an individual, should i be exempt from that rule?


    my main point is that, no religion should be exempt from showing their face as a face says a lot about a person..... religious attire is fine, just make sure people know who you are

    wearing the full veil over the face is more of a cultural islmaic tradition than a demand of the religion, unless you happen to belong in a few slightly more extreme sects of the religions
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would imagine that at least there would be some provision in place (for instance, 'checkpoints') to ensure the person gaining entry to the building/doing an exam/etc is really the person in question.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I would imagine that at least there would be some provision in place (for instance, 'checkpoints') to ensure the person gaining entry to the building/doing an exam/etc is really the person in question.


    how would you know who they are? without a facial comparsion?
    in my exams people come around and check everyones uni cards to their face or a driver license if you lost your id card recently

    this really isn't the point anyway... it's a perfectly fair rule to have to show your face in their private premises
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What I meant is a check conducted privately whereby the person in question removes her veil to a security guard of the same sex, so the guard can check the face against the photograph in question.

    A bit like the checkpoints they have at Muslim airports where the traveller goes into a cabin/private room with a female security guard.

    If anyone objects to that then they're being very unreasonable IMO and the college or institution in question shouldn't have to put up with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    What I meant is a check conducted privately whereby the person in question removes her veil to a security guard of the same sex, so the guard can check the face against the photograph in question.

    A bit like the checkpoints they have at Muslim airports where the traveller goes into a cabin/private room with a female security guard.

    If anyone objects to that then they're being very unreasonable IMO and the college or institution in question shouldn't have to put up with it.


    waste of time imo

    private premises, simple non intrusive request, it doesnt even break the religions 'rules' as full body coverage isn't actually required to the best of my knowledge

    seriously id turn down an applicant if they were that fussy, becuase that is it, the person is just being fussy, and religion isnt a excuse for that level of fussiness - if these rule gets changed i want someone to adopt a belief in allowing noone to see them and see how the institution deals with it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What level of force are you guys comfortable with to make them show their face?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    oooook.. as a muslim, i know that covering the face isn't a must, but very good if you do cover it.. and the way some of you are just making comments without knowing everything.. it isn't appropriate.
    if someone wants to wear it, then so what? if there's a female person that can see the face and identify who it is, then it isn't really a problem.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I quite agree, there should be provisions made for students with religious beliefs. Recently at UCL there have been some small-scale clashes between religious societies and either the colleges or other Union societies and in every case the point is made, "we're a secular university" - meaning, "we don't care about anyone's faith". But to me, secular means multi-faith. Is agnosticism / atheism not a form of religious belief? Just because your religious belief allows you not to break any rules or risk persecution that doesn't mean others should be punished for theirs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    atz wrote:
    oooook.. as a muslim, i know that covering the face isn't a must, but very good if you do cover it.. and the way some of you are just making comments without knowing everything.. it isn't appropriate.
    if someone wants to wear it, then so what? if there's a female person that can see the face and identify who it is, then it isn't really a problem.


    why should extra provision be made for everyone who has a slightly different belief?

    and it's a rule across 'campus' so people always have their faces showing - would you cater for someone whose 'beliefs' meant they couldn't show their face to anyone? i for one wouldn't - if it isn't a must, then you can remove the face covering part whilst at university

    and piccolo, a religious belief is one of believing in a higher being, thus not believing in a god isnt a defined religion - the problems at UCL are due to the relilgious societies poltisicing their beliefs, and lying about eachother.... especially in regard to the jewish and islam societies last year. Like any body they act as if they talk for all members when they obviously don't.


    i feel like setting my own religion up to get my own personal exceptions to things in life, it's a load of fucking bollocks
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    What level of force are you guys comfortable with to make them show their face?

    me?

    just not allow access to the resources..... simple really


    i'm happy for alterations to some rules which arent tedious like for school uniforms allowing someone to wear a headscarves or something, however you cant always get your own way completly
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If we are talking about a question of security and been able to identify people by their faces, such as in the case of access to dangerous material, i am all for preventing veils.

    But outside security issues, i do not really care much what they wear, though i am sure i will think of a reason why i am wrong later then contradict myself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Would people say the same thing if their was a belief that the members of that religion would not be in the same room as a homosexual. Would you agree to the provision of special examination rooms for example.

    This would seem like a simple way to accomodate that persons belief wouldn't it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doesn't Islam allow for polygamy?

    This is certainly illegal in the UK so their is precedent for the illegality of certain beleifs........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok as a non muslim I beleive the rule should be set by the statute book. A satan worshiper cannot fuck goats and parade in public dressed in nothing but cowboy boots and a neclace made of chicken guts because its against the law. In this country you obey the law as laid down by parliment as voted for by you.
    I will start a religion that allows me to pass summary life sentences to all those who wish to circumvent the law via religious dispensation if that becomes the case, problem solved.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Doesn't Islam allow for polygamy?

    And interestingly enough a "think tank" not so long ago came out saying that men with more than one wife should have inheritance rights for them all.

    Good for the college. Just like that girl whingeing about the jilbab should have been invited to find schooling somewhere else, so should any students who have any trouble with this.

    Religious attire has no place in any public or educational place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    What level of force are you guys comfortable with to make them show their face?
    Why is force necessary?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don’t see any particular problem with Imperial. The vast majority of Muslim students in state schools and universities do not demand any special treatment and don’t object to perfectly rational rules and regulations. And that’s fantastic. I don't see why the minority unable to do that can't attend university abroad in a strict Muslim country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    piccolo wrote:
    But to me, secular means multi-faith.

    :confused:

    Who the hell told you that?
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote:
    Religious attire has no place in any public or educational place.

    I don't agree with this. If the attire isn't a problem itself, there's no reason it should be banned. A veil over the face is a problem for identification issues, and that why I think it should be banned wherever people have to be identifiable.

    Following with the "made up religions" trend: Imagine there was a religion that says (among other things) that people should always wear red shoes and never wash their hands, and a person of that religion wanted to work in the food industry. Of course the colour of their shoes isn't a problem, so why ban it? On the contrary, everyone who works with food should have clean hands, so the other part of their beliefs would have to be broken.
    Either they'd accept that for that job their way of life is not acceptable and wash their hands, or they should find something else to do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if it isn't a must to cover your face then why insist on doing it? sure you can do it out of uni, but while you're on campus then its not going to do any harm to just take the veil off is it?
    its hardly asking much so i don't see why they should be granted special treatment, if its all in the name of security then they should have some respect that its for their own good
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In our uni you're not allowed in (after certain times) without an id card....so if you're all veiled up, then you're not getting in.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, if you're going down this route, then surely it should be an offense to wear such attire in a bank also, since the same applies to motorcycle helmets.

    I read that the banks had considered this, but decided there was too much money to be lost. Think it was on the bbc website but can't find the link.

    I think that in places of high security, where identification is critical, then you can't just flout the rules because of your religion. They should be politely asked to seek another place of study.

    Anywhere else, people can do what they like.
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