A sign of the times?

Former Member · January 2006

morrocan roll wrote:

i think the only country to compare it with regarding the way it deals with human rights at the moment is america ...and the way it deals with its poor.
before you slag me as an anti american i can assure you i have never been but ...as china lifts itself into an american kind of dream ...more and more consumerism ...more and more flash cars and fast highways ...are you up to date with their highway building? ...more and more private ownership and wealth ...america is increasingly ...ignoring human rights ...its poor are getting more and more desperately poor ...its government become more corrupt and violent ...wouldn't you say that china is coming up ...and america is sinking down?

I never thought you were an anti-American, that's a simplistic label used by people who have lost the argument.

I'm well-aware that the USA doesn't respect human rights. Well, not abroad anyway. Nor do they pay much attention to international law or other sovereign nations. I fear much the same is happening here. Right now, we have a government that is trying to impose ID cards, so the state can spy on us. Nothing to do with preventing terrorism, all to do with taking away our right to privacy.

If countries could be rated on how they treat their poor, most would do very badly. Britain has a welfare state which helps spongers, not those who actually need help, for instance. More than ever in this world, money talks.

Teh_Gerbil · January 2006

I am NOT Anti-American. It's fun to slag off the Yanks, French, Japanese, Chinese... but im not ANTI-them in anyway.

But the Americans (Or rather, their government) piss me off latley for ONE REASON - You CLAIM to be spreading all this freedom, and great stuff to others - yet you aren't even doing it at home! And neither are WE, the Brits, anymore! WTF is going on!

Oh, and plus you never DID spread democracy abroad. Or Human Rights. Or Freedom. So stop lying and be honest.

Former Member · January 2006

But it's good PR for newspaper and television advertising sales, Gerb.

Teh_Gerbil · January 2006

Clandestine wrote:

But it's good PR for newspaper and television advertising sales, Gerb.

Until they start to go wrong... like Vietnam. Like Iraq.

Former Member · January 2006

China isn't at the moment communist, it's turning towards capitalism everyday- a bad thing for a country where every store has 10 times the worker it needs simply because if they didnt work there, what would they do?

As for an example about minimum wages: i don't know exactly how much the chinese minimum wage is, but workers in tescos and KFC get the equivalent of under 50p an hour. So after a days work they can come home with roughly £4, save some, and still live on the rest. it is that dirt cheap out there.

As for politics, as you'll see from the comment from the chinese person above, the chinese people as a whole ACTUALLY believe that their current government is the best thing for them. And they really do believe it, it's not a false pretense of a belief induced by being scared of the state. They are such state-proud people- if you see an essay written by a chinese person that involves them mentioning their country, it doesn't just come out as "China" but "the glorious state of China" etc.

And what most chinese people currently believe about their government is that their country needs a strong guiding hand, which i can kind of agree with, otherwise that country would not get anything done at all. Yet talking to them, i cannot get one of them to agree that the lack of a voting system is a negative thing. They don't see the need for them to be able to change things because they have full faith in their government and its plans. In the words of my friend "our government made one big mistake already, now we are just planning on improving our economy, our economy is our only focus."

And lastly from a language point of view: China is quickly becoming one of the most influential players in the world economy, perhaps even overtaking Japan. And to start studying Mandarin- or, to be honest, any of the similar non-alphabetically based languages- from a younger age will be more beneficial and certainly a lot easier than starting it at an old fuddy duddy age of 18 when it becomes available at uni.

I don't agree that any particular language should be compulsory, but i think a wider choice would be amazing. Would anyone ever consider learning korean? or vietnamese? these languages are a lot different to the regular european ones and may encourage the current students who, in my experience, tend to hate learning languages.

Former Member · January 2006

queenmab_roo wrote:

"the glorious state of China" etc.

hihi, im not sure, i think there must be some thing wrong with your englsh translation :hyper: . can you tell me what's the original text in chinese character.

queenmab_roo wrote:

So after a days work they can come home with roughly £4.

i had a question, if the chinese live on less than £4 a day like you said , how could they afford their meal, cloth, or even a car. I think the news must be lying when they told us that china is the second biggest market for auto-mobile or oil.

im sory for my poor english, i have try my best to make it more understandable. :hyper: by the way, how long have you been living in china. can you read chinese, maybe i can write to you in chinese next time.

Former Member · January 2006

stargalaxy wrote:

But on a wider level, I'm worried. I believe the increasing power of this communist state is a danger to the world. Let us not forget that China is one of few countries that is against bringing in sanctions for Iran as it attempts to produce its first nuclear bomb. The rise of a country like China, a country that pays slave wages to its workers, that has no respect for human rights, is a worrying sign.

What do you think?

Well Spanish is another big one, at least in human rights and there are a lot of human rights violaters in Latin America...

I think it's good that we learn Mandarin, if they ever do become our enemy a least we may know them a little better.

Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

Former Member · January 2006

achinese wrote:

queenmab_roo wrote:

"the glorious state of China" etc.

hihi, im not sure, i think there must be some thing wrong with your englsh translation :hyper: . can you tell me what's the original text in chinese character.

well i don't have the original Chinese characters cos it was an essay she was writing in English, i'll have a look and see if i still have her original document and get her exact wording. it isn't saying anything is wrong in saying that- it's great to be so proud of your country- but people in england just wouldn't say that.

achinese wrote:

i had a question, if the chinese live on less than £4 a day like you said , how could they afford their meal, cloth, or even a car. I think the news must be lying when they told us that china is the second biggest market for auto-mobile or oil.

im sory for my poor english, i have try my best to make it more understandable. by the way, how long have you been living in china. can you read chinese, maybe i can write to you in chinese next time.

I'm not saying that the chinese live on less a day- I don't actually know proper salaries in China, I was just giving an example from an international corporation exploiting the people in china, as if KFC tried to pay any of their workers the equivalent of that in a western country they'd be crucified!

So can you tell me from a Chinese Point of view, is 40kuai a day a reasonable wage to live on? cos i'm pretty sure (although i can't tell chinese people's ages at all) that a lot of the people i see working in KFC are working there as a career and not just as a saturday job.

As for being a large market for automobiles and oil...well you do have a lot of people... certainly in beijing i can't move for the cars!

I've been living in China for 5 months, on holiday in england at the moment then i'm back over for another 5 months, i'm studying Chinese in Beijing so yes i can read some chinese. If you want to message me in Chinese, that'd be great but you'd be better off Private Messaging me rather than putting it as a message on the boards, as the boards tend to be English only.

i notice you're from Shenzhen, my best English friend in China is currently living down there with her boyfriend and his family, who are chinese.

Former Member · January 2006

Disillusioned wrote:

You cannot seriously compare China and America on human rights. America isn’t perfect but anyone who compares it to China has to be pretty ignorant.

America is a democracy with free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, a free press, a Bill of Rights and a Constitution. China is a totalitarian regime with strictly enforced press censorship, a closed judiciary and severe human rights abuses.

I’m assuming that you’ve never looked at Amnesty International’s website. Yes, America like Britain, France and many other democracies does not have an unblemished human rights record. America is not perfect. But if you’ve ever taken a look at AI you’d be aware that as flawed as America is it cannot be compared to China.

Oh and MR, if America and China are comparable on human rights would you please tell me where the American asylum seekers are?

sadly the current US government as a whole tends to ignore the constitution, their elections are extremely questionable in methods employed, their judiciary in a mess at the moment, and their press is arsekissing the government

Former Member · January 2006

queenmab_roo wrote:

I'm not saying that the chinese live on less a day- I don't actually know proper salaries in China, I was just giving an example from an international corporation exploiting the people in china, as if KFC tried to pay any of their workers the equivalent of that in a western country they'd be crucified!

So can you tell me from a Chinese Point of view, is 40kuai a day a reasonable wage to live on?

i think it depends on the price of the chinese domestic product, it sounds reasonable when they can feed the entire family with one penny and with the rest spent on lurxury, :hyper:. otherwise, not reasonable.

i think this question has lot to do with economy which i am not very good at it. so it's better to take everything into consideration instead just arriving at a conclusion simply from "other country's point of view"(slave wage). after all, we use kuai(yuan) in china instead of the "dollar($)".

Former Member · January 2006

I think you will find that people in the cities will be working on wages that are considerably better than those in the countryside, which is where many have come from.

The migration from rural to urban areas in recent years in China is the biggest migration in human history and it is driven by the fact that there are far more opportunities to earn a decent living in the urban areas. KFC is only a bad job by western standards, compared to being a subsistence peasent it is probably quite good for a lot of people......

Former Member · January 2006

achinese wrote:

i think it depends on the price of the chinese domestic product, it sounds reasonable when they can feed the entire family with one penny and with the rest spent on lurxury, :hyper:. otherwise, not reasonable.

i think this question has lot to do with economy which i am not very good at it. so it's better to take everything into consideration instead just arriving at a conclusion simply from "other country's point of view"(slave wage). after all, we use kuai(yuan) in china instead of the "dollar($)".

lol i don't agree that a reasonable wage is when the majority is spent on luxury... i think in general that a reasonable liveable wage should be 50% living expenses, 25% savings and 25% social... which of course will be totally not inline with current living expenses and salaries but that may be ideal (don't shoot me if it's totally out!!)

so a KFC worker doing 5-6 shifts a week would get 200/240kuai a week. so they could support themselves and maybe one other person for food, allowing 20kuai a day, (which yes i realise is overestimating) and have maybe 70kuai over a week for other expenses- which I really don't think is enough to live on. Cos in that i've not counted travel, rent, let alone luxuries to wash or social lives.

And a lot of the posters on this board are english and therefore use pounds, not dollars.

Former Member · January 2006

if that's really so, the problem may be "too little job for too many people" in this area. it was like when too many people were chasing too few good, the price of the goods will go up. same applys to the wage, when too many company were chasing behind relative less workers, which will leads to the shortage of worker, so the their salaries will go up as well. i guess this is probably the reason why it remain the government's priority to create more jobs.

by the way, do they let you to sit with chinese student side by side in the class, when you first came to china to study. i mean you might not be able to catch up with the rest of the class without taking any additional language class first. there's a lot student from s. korean, japan or the rest of asian, they need to take some sort of language test before they can get into the class with us. so i think you may need to spend sometime with them first. the essay she wrote sounds like a translation from some dictionary. i guess original chinese meaning should be "big" instead of the "groliarous". this is only my guess, because i don't know what she is really trying to say.

i came across a news article today about this topic. i don't know why people are so crazy about the language considering how difficult is to learn it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/11/international/asia/11china.html?ex=1137733200&en=ad5787105c581071&ei=5070

"language among students.

"Chinese is as popular in Korea today as English is in China," Ms. Xu said enthusiastically.

Although Chinese language studies may be most advanced in neighboring countries, where the ability to understand the Mandarin dialect has traditionally been considered a mark of cultivation, they are making huge strides farther afield. Eleven Confucius Institutes are up and running, in Europe and Africa as well as Asia.

One center is already operating in the United States, at the University of Maryland, and five others are expected to open soon in Honolulu, Kansas City, Mo., San Francisco, Chicago and New York. Twelve more are under discussion.

Even before that first center opened, the College Board, the body that administers advanced placement exams, added Chinese to its list of foreign language tests, the first time an East Asian language has been included in its testing.

In a 2003 survey of American high schools, the College Board found that 50 said they would like to add advanced placement courses in Russian, about 175 said Japanese and 240 said Italian - and 2,400 said they would prefer Chinese. "We had no idea there was such an incredible interest out there," Tom Matts, a College Board official, told CNN. "

Former Member · January 2006

achinese wrote:

if that's really so, the problem may be "too little job for too many people" in this area. it was like when too many people were chasing too few good, the price of the goods will go up. same applys to the wage, when too many company were chasing behind relative less workers, which will leads to the shortage of worker, so the their salaries will go up as well. i guess this is probably the reason why it remain the government's priority to create more jobs.

by the way, do they let you to sit with chinese student side by side in the class, when you first came to china to study. i mean you might not be able to catch up with the rest of the class without taking any additional language class first. there's a lot student from s. korean, japan or the rest of asian, they need to take some sort of language test before they can get into the class with us. so i think you may need to spend sometime with them first. the essay she wrote sounds like a translation from some dictionary. i guess original chinese meaning should be "big" instead of the "groliarous". this is only my guess, because i don't know what she is really trying to say.

i came across a news article today about this topic. i don't know why people are so crazy about the language considering how difficult is to learn it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/11/international/asia/11china.html?ex=1137733200&en=ad5787105c581071&ei=5070

"language among students.

"Chinese is as popular in Korea today as English is in China," Ms. Xu said enthusiastically.

Although Chinese language studies may be most advanced in neighboring countries, where the ability to understand the Mandarin dialect has traditionally been considered a mark of cultivation, they are making huge strides farther afield. Eleven Confucius Institutes are up and running, in Europe and Africa as well as Asia.

One center is already operating in the United States, at the University of Maryland, and five others are expected to open soon in Honolulu, Kansas City, Mo., San Francisco, Chicago and New York. Twelve more are under discussion.

Even before that first center opened, the College Board, the body that administers advanced placement exams, added Chinese to its list of foreign language tests, the first time an East Asian language has been included in its testing.

In a 2003 survey of American high schools, the College Board found that 50 said they would like to add advanced placement courses in Russian, about 175 said Japanese and 240 said Italian - and 2,400 said they would prefer Chinese. "We had no idea there was such an incredible interest out there," Tom Matts, a College Board official, told CNN. "

It certainly is a problem with overpopulation, hence the single offspring policy. although i have heard that if you are a maths or science graduate you are allowed two children...

I'm in a class studying with other foreigners- mainly Koreans- and what i'm actually studying is Chinese language. I have the option to do the HSK test that you mentioned but as i'm going back to England to continue my university studies there after this year, i've not taken that up. plus i'm not as hardworking as the chinese or korean students for that matter

The essay she wrote wasn't actually a mistranslation, she really did mean that. she was writing a short essay for an application to become a french au pair, which she had to do in english, and she asked me to correct it and help her write it. When i saw what she had written, i questioned her about it, to which she replied that yes she did want to say that, because she wanted to give the impression of how much she felt china was good for her, and how great it was, as she felt that would give the french people a good indication of her character. When i re-wrote her essay for her, i did take it out, because it just isn't the way westerners would say things.

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A sign of the times?

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