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The concept of honour
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Posted by Thanatos...AGAIN;
Do you keep your word? Is honor a commitment, or a thing of convenience?
In the olden days, men were gentlemen. Their honour was all that mattered to them. They would protect their honour, and as a result, their word was their bond, and would suffice.
Is this concept dead in modern society? Do men have honour any more? Is this an alien concept to the youth, and the 21-35 range of today?
I'm interested to hear opinions on this!
Do you keep your word? Is honor a commitment, or a thing of convenience?
In the olden days, men were gentlemen. Their honour was all that mattered to them. They would protect their honour, and as a result, their word was their bond, and would suffice.
Is this concept dead in modern society? Do men have honour any more? Is this an alien concept to the youth, and the 21-35 range of today?
I'm interested to hear opinions on this!
0
Comments
Honour these days is described by different adjectives: 'trustworthy', 'honest', 'reliable', 'fair' etc.
*I just thought, I didn't really answer the question. The concept of honour is not dead in modern society. (Some) Men do have honour. And it's not alien to the youth - it's not as if everyone over your arbitrary 35 is honourable and everyone younger has no honour. It depends on the individual, and always has.
[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Kentish ]
Honor is not the exclusive provence of "older" generations, nor is it completely absent in today's youth... it is simply more difficult to find as society gets more "liberal".
Ed. inflammatory material <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Squinty ]
Perhaps honour now IS compromise - doing the right thing in favour of the majority.
But I think it's probably more honourable to do justice to yourself in all circumstances, and maybe that's where our concept of guilt comes from now.
I dunno. <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Interesting topic, though.
I totally agree with Thanatos, honour is something you dont think about, its just part of your character. I think that when you are tested as a person, thats when you see if you really are an honourable man.
I like to think im a honourable man and I try to live my life well. Ill have to wait and see if I actually live up to my own expectations when the time comes.
The Daily Mail did a story on the origins of the 'Women and children first' thing on ships. Very interesting read about the HMS Birkenhead. With only room on the lifeboats for the 29 women and children, the men on board were told to abandon ship by the captain and make their way to the lifeboats. The Army officer on board(It was a troopship) told his 450 soldiers that they would swamp the lifeboats if they got to them and asked his soldiers not to do so. All 450 of them stood fast on the decks until the ship sank. All but about 30 of them were killed in the shark infested waters. All the women and children survived. Thats my idea of honour and bravery.
I do not think that "cowardice" or "liberalism" have to be opposites of honour.
Understand the concept of honour!
*ahem*
I'll leave now....
It can be doubted that honour exists at all as a concept. It can be broken down into a million different things. How many men would drown to save the life of a woman? Not as many now as it used to be. Men holding doors open for women isnt honour, that is politeness. fighting for your country isn't honour, you are either forced to or feel you have to out of a belief that your country should prevail. That is why honour as a concept has simply been made up to make it easier to express the other aspects I have just mentioned.
A large part is integrity -- staying true to one's principles. In that respect one could even find "honour" among "bad" people.
Another part is a humble conviction that the whole is greater than the part. This, I think, is the facet that manifests itself most visibly on the battlefield.
"Women and children first" isn't just a maxim -- it's a truth of survival. To give the young and the childbearers anything other than prime position in the hierarchy of survival is to commit cultural suicide.
Is the concept of honour dead or dying? Sadly, I think the answer is yes -- and the world is far worse for it. If I were attacked I know a fair few moves that could severely injure or even kill my attacker. If I were the sole survivor of such an incident I bet not one court in a hundred would listen if I claimed self-defence: I would tell the truth upon my honour, but in this cynical age it would be in vain.
Thanatos: Honor is a function of disipline.
Just a minor adjustment: I would say that honour is a function of self-discipline. If a man risks his neck for others because he's had it drilled into him, fair enough. If he risks his neck because that's simply his nature, and he feels honour-bound to do so -- that is the truly admirable thing, no?
Whowhere: fighting for your country isn't honour, you are either forced to or feel you have to out of a belief that your country should prevail.
No. I know some who have served simply because of a desire to serve, because they felt that such was the price of citizenship -- of self-respect.
That said, one reason why I am not sure if I wish to join up is the nationalist aspect -- I really do value all humanity (even all life) over any one nation.
That is spot on, well done. Whats this all life business though are you a vegan?
And, sadly, I must concur with you. Many posts within this forum substantiate your perspective. <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
OO-RAH!!!
Sir... you have just taken one very large step in understanding, in clarity, of what makes some amongst us "tick". When you apply the "law of transitivity", as in, the price tag is measured in the acceptance of individual responsibility and accountability, you will have taken another.
Congratulations... my esteem and respect deepens.
Honor is like virginity... when you compromise it, it is gone...
The basis of the "liberal" mindset is the belief that an individual is not responsible and accountable for him(/her)self. Take a look around... the more liberal society gets, the more litigious it becomes.
The basis of honor is the insistence within an individual that he be responsible and accountable for his actions and decisions. It is standing upright and accepting consequences without excuse.
Honorable men require a handshake, not a team of lawyers...
Honor and the liberal will remain at loggerheads.
It is in the instances where life takes a turn toward a real "horror show" moment that a person's true mettle is demonstrated, but the choice is not made within that moment. If you live your life making the tough choice because it is the right choice, then in the moment of your "test of courage" the "choice" you make will be the proof of what you have aspired toward, and it will not be a "reasoned" response, but indicative of who and what you are.
All men are in battle with their innate cowardice... it is the mediocrity to which we are born. Some rule over those moments of cowardice, and some are ruled by them. It is only those who are so deeply mired within that mediocrity who do not know this, and it is because they have never tested themselves... Discipline of self is the exercise with which we strengthen our resolve against those pangs which would ensnare us, and drag us back down into the fetid quagmire.
[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
No -- not even a plain and simple vegetarian, let alone a vegan. Let me try to explain.
When I eat, I am 'sacrificing' a vegetable or animal to sustain me. I don't see that as wrong because the thing that benefits is a more complex being -- 'bigger,' if you want to use that term. So, I value a human over an ant (all other things being equal), a family over a lone individual, a city over a town, a nation over a city, humanity over any one nation, the entire life process everywhere in the Universe over humanity.
I don't hold all forms of life (a.k.a. complex order) to be equally valuable -- just the totality to be more valuable than any constituent part.
I hope that made some sense.
I think I agree as well! <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
To your people;
To your beliefs;
To your nation!
These sum up a commitment to yourself and defines what 'honor' is all about. It can be taught...usually that isn't needed because you have it at birth and all that is required is definition!
It is all about who and what we are and how we are in agreement with our own reality.
<IMG SRC="cool.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
There is so much nationalist sentiment around here, it is all crap!
The nation is just a concept, it isn't real, you don't have something in common with someone because you were born in the same place and the govt probably doesn't represent your beliefs, whats the point?
The government is not the nation...it is the people who define what nation is.
It is all about identity/commitment and what is worth living for.
<IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
In a democracy then the govt is the enbodiment of the "nation" and it supposedly represents the people
Well, saying there is no such thing as Nation is a Marxist comment. I personally believe myself to be British. I put Britain on top, and I am proud of being British.
I would gladly serve my country in a time of crisis, and I intend to do that after uni.
The idea of a Nation is a concept, as we are all humans we should have no need to seperate into different countries. However we do because we are territorial, so I aim to uphold our beliefs.
I can sort of buy that, in the spirit of Thomas Paine's brilliant line, "Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
that is the point I am trying to make, that is why it is so silly!
That isn't the point, it is known as patriotism, a commitement to one's country and one's people.
The majority of people in UK have common values, and beliefs. We are mostly the same race, religion, type of person. We believe in certain freedoms, but certain laws as well.
Maybe there is more to it than that, think of it as faith. My country is something I believe and have faith in, can't explain why, I just do.
Take a random person on the street in Nottingham, how similar will you be to him, what characteristics will you share?
Take a random person in the street in Lagos, you will probably not be very similar to them but no less so then a random "British" person!
And there is certainly VERY little similarity in the religion of "British" people
The reason there apears to be a decline of honroable people... is a decline in people who display values congruous to societies list. It seems likely to me that societies list is outdated. A few of decades ago it was honorable to be a "gentleman". These days though, it can be a hazard. No one likes being yelled at by a Femi-Nazi because they tried to open the door for them. For this reason, I stick to opening the door for older woman who value that sort of thing, and let the younger Femi-Nazi's get it their own-damned-self. =P
As for the 'fem-nazis' the best approach is to open the door for them anyway...and with that little smile let them know that you know it pisses them off to appreciate your effort in spite of themselves...do it kindly though or it is meaningless.
Duty is my honor...seems I read that once on a WW-2 poster...values shared with an enemy!