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Sorry, that's a cheap shot and not actually true.
Firstly, it's easy to argue that condemnation of Israle is the same as condemning jews generally. It isn't the same at all. Although I note that too many on the far right actually use that as a cover for their anti-semite views.
But in defence of Clandestine, he does support those who are oppressed by the US too.
Of course, that's partly because he sees it as just part of a Zionist plot.
Someone else in history used that argument too.
I'll take pictures next time I am in Israel
Since this thread is neither about Zimbabwe nor Chinese/Tibetan dynamics, your argument is both presumptious and as ill informed as anything else you continuously regurgitate in blind, morally inconsistent apologetic for Israel's inhumanity toward the rightful inhabitants of that land.
However, dis, by your own standard, you seem ready to lash out at brutality done to any save the Palestinians, whom you gladly ignore as the true victims in the matter under discussion (and one's whose rights have been ignored far longer than those other victims to whom you seek to divert attention).
You wouldn't recognise consistency of principle if it bit you on the arse dear boy. Your inability to honestly apply the same condemnation to Israel and its false veneer of "democracy" (since no exceptionalistic model of statehood can be legitimately equated to true democratic pluralism) as I can only hope you might have toward Apartheid South Africa only reinforces the extent of your cognitive disconnect.
Again, your regurgitation of the classic off the shelf dismissal line, "all a Zionist plot" only adds further support to my contention that you have only the most surface of understandings of the power of ideology and how it determines the direction of political agendas to which it pertains.
Indeed, while history shows a lot of the Palestinians woes are in fact self-inflicted and that the Palestinians rejected the idea of there being two states twice and subsequently with the Arabs waged war upon Israel one side does need to compromise to move forward. And like many people I believe Sharon - although an unlikely character for doing so was doing that and was going to make further concessions.
A final peace solution in accordance with the Roadmap to Peace plan requires Israeli compromises over the West Bank and the Palestinians disarming their terrorist groups. The Israelis have started the process by withdrawing from Gaza, they cannot be expected to make further reforms until Islamic Jihad, Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organisations are disarmed.
There's more than one ideology Mr Pot, you seem to forget that. You only seem interested in those you disagree with and there are faults in all...
Especially yours.
It also shows that many aren't and there were reasons why they felt they could not accept what was on the table.
Like I said, there's more than one side to this.
Shouldn't you be pouring oil, not water or something?
Anyway. There aren't any palestinian's and there aren't any Israeli's. there aren't any Muslim's and there aren't any Jews. Of course, some individuals will pick up guns as a convincer, but I'd think about that for a minute before anyone goes following them.
So, which individuals have hurt wihich other individuals when and where?
Firstly, there are no other "ideologies" which are responsible for beginning this conflict. The entire matter of transplanting European Jews from their homes (especially in Germany, where in point of fact most Jews did not wish to leave to move to Palestine as per the heavy handed activism of the Zionist party of 1930's Germany) was and remains to this day a pillar of the ONLY ideology which need be addressed and eschewed in order to restore honesty to the international debate and long need atonement by the nation it forcibly created for its own terrorist origins.
Fighting back in self defense against those who have never acknoweldged their own adoption of principles is not itself an "ideology", it is simple self preservation which is the right of any subjugated and brutalised people against their aggressors. Demand an end to the aggressions (military and institutional), demand true pluralistic, indiscriminate recognition of the property and rights of the indigenous peoples and ensure equal protection and societal advantages regardless of ethicity or religion and you will show yourself a voice for lasting peace. Any other excuses such as you regularly make (however egalitarian you think you might be blaming both the aggressors and victims alike) only pander to those all too happy to see this status quo continue.
Your attempts to make this issue about me rather than those who are the true victims here does you no intellectual credit whatsoever.
Fucking lucky for them they did. Or did you miss what happened next?
The modern state is one of Eastern Europe ideological design and intent. No Hebrew nor Aramaic origin to be found in Herzl or Weismann or any other of the orignal progenitors. Turko-Slavic, yes. Hebrew/Aramaic (or even truly semitic by culture, language or ethnicity), not remotely.
i say he's only ill cause someone put something in his drinking water
Ignoring the dieology (typo intentional) of the national socialist of course
You may not follow their method but you certainly come across like many early Nuremburg type rants.
besides, Zionist of not, I'm fucked if I would want to stay in a continent which seemed to want me and my family wiped of the face of the planet.
That you miss the obvious fact that, by pointing out that your views are based mainly on hatred (even if that is just for an ideology) and bordering on hysteria, I can undermine your "full of holes" stance doesn't do much for yours either.
My views (as those of all anti-Zionists of any academic and intellectual merit both Jew and gentile alike) are based on recognition of the whitewashed record of the role Zionism has played in perpetrating one of the greatest crimes in history (by a people who as Al rightly says, "should know better") upon not only the indigenous population of Palestine but also on the average Jewish citizens of the era in which all the longrunning problems we face were born.
Your paltry quips don't substantively refute any aspect of my stance I'm afraid, all the more so since it remains more consistent to those very principles of Nuremburg to which you so have so glibly referred. That you call such principles, drafted by the UK and US to rightly judge crimes against humanity no less, "rants" shows your equal contempt for those who speak out against injustice.
Who did what, which and when? It is history to be learned from. It will not be long before every person who was alive during the creation of the Israeli state will be dead and then who has rightful claim and the correct papers will not matter and neither will the argument of who was their first.
Even the Palestinian leadership have been on the news making it clear with Sharon's impending death the Israeli leadership will be weakened as much as the palestinians leading to no one to stem the flow of extremism! This is not an opportunity, it is just moment of death in the history of the region.
I don’t see how the fact that some anti-Zionists are Jewish lends anti-Zionist arguments any credibility. Some Jews supported Mussolini in the early 1930s, that doesn't make fascism right. Anyway while not all anti-Zionist Jews are self-hating (although many are) you only need to take a look at some of the anti-Zionist Jewish groups to realise how bizarre some of their claims are. And within the Jewish community these staunch anti-Zionists you speak of Clandestine are a pretty tiny minority - and lets remember that the Jewish community itself is a very small minority in Europe and America.
Also, the complete freedom of information and speech that Israelis and Jews in America and Europe have allows for the widest range of views to be presented. (Meanwhile in Arab and Muslim states there is no such free speech and free press and extreme penalties for dissenting views – so it’s difficult to make any fair comparison between dissident voices on either side). Although despite those penalties for Palestinian dissidents there are some. (A Palestinian Zionist)
Way to miss the point. The fact is the history doesn't matter - you do not punish people for what their parents or grandparents did. The State of Israel exists and the majority of its population want it to continue to exist more or less in its current form.
Now that doesn't mean that current injustices don't need to be remedied (eg Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories), but it is naive and pretty unhelpful to think they're going to do so if they fear that they are still under threat from their Arab neighbours.
For their to be peace the Arabs need to start seeing Israel as a legimate state and not as a zionist interloper.
PS I notice you didn't respond to my previous post - is this because if you start thinking about why the 'zionists' moved to israel you may find out the history isn't as black and white as you suggest.
Whereas your views have nothing to do with PR bullshit of another perspective of course.
Far from it. I love talking to people who can see more than just one viewpoint. They aren't so entrenched and so actually read/listen as well as spout their own points as if they are gospell.
I have new for you Clandestine, it may come as a shock. But you really aren't as clever as you think you are. Perhaps you should try reading/paying attention and perhaps, maybe, you might learn something.
The rabid dog approach get you nowhere. Neither do the blinkers.
So well whitewashed that you found out about it.
As did I?
LOL
Wrong Nuremberg event.
Hmm...that sounds like a very Clandestine-esque post.
Not just Clandestine, nearly all the regular politics posters are like this.
Also, yes every political poster seems like that, but then has the nerve to insult other people for doing what they do themselves.
Don't flatter yourself.
No more singleminded than the handful of apologists and excuse makers for Israel's racist apartheid governing principles and practices (and a damn site better read and informed on the matter beyond the surface reporting from whence those same apologists derive their status quo soundbites and labels ("self-hating Jews" being a prime example).
Perhaps trying to discuss something which is not indisputable amongst those with a firmer grasp on the subject might resolve that problem.
I might disagree with someone like Aladdin on most stuff, though when it comes down to it, I don't associate his username when I read posts by him with bastard - unlike some other people.
I know perfectly well, that I have been stubborn and uncompromising, and have read posts that I currently regret (not the content, but the way they were set forward), though I can honestly say that I have yet to surpass the rudeness and arrogance which is a very present factor with one or two of the posters here.
It's boring by now.
And I feel boring and old, for feeling the need to lecture others about tone.
This thread has just gone into that same old mode of lets hate Israel and adore the Palestinians, when the truth is all sides are as bad as each other in the situation. No one side is right or wrong.