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Keep "intelligent design" concept out of science lessons, US judge rules

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    marv wrote:
    klintock how does an electron microscope work then if it does not use Electrons??

    I google how does an electron microscope work....

    Electron Microscope


    theres scanning tunneling too which just measure electric current as well

    cant be arsed to explain
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Klintock is just plain mad at times.

    Can't he just claim electrons don't exist? Wouldn't be the first thing. Let him be happy. Then deny we exist, and that the government exists, and that countries exist.

    I think, therefore I do not exist?!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Klintock is just plain mad at times.

    Can't he just claim electrons don't exist? Wouldn't be the first thing. Let him be happy. Then deny we exist, and that the government exists, and that countries exist.

    I think, therefore I do not exist?!


    lets no forget that to an extent electrons arent a physical object but a mathematical standing wave in going around an atom, whilst at the same time having an intrinsic angular momentum
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    lets no forget that to an extent electrons arent a physical object but a mathematical standing wave in going around an atom, whilst at the same time having an intrinsic angular momentum

    Yes, but there is little doubt they exist is some context.

    I also think this debate has, as always, gone off topic with amazing skill.

    Happy Christmas, ye lot.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not quite sure but I think Klintock is trying to say that electrons aren't a unique entity, something to do with vibrations. Meh I just scrapped my science GCSE's so not debating here with the heaveyweights.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are too many holes in the theory of evolution to simply state it as the only possibility and it would be naive to not explore other possibilities that would further scientific development. What genetic mutations have accutually taken place that have evolved whole species in our lifetime? I dont know of any and even if there are, there are so few cases so how can you then turn round and say we evolved from nothing. Everyone agrees that natural selection takes place but accutual genetic mutation evolution is a patchy theory to say the least, not to mention the big bang and other theories that are taught as science!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Googler wrote:
    There are too many holes in the theory of evolution to simply state it as the only possibility and it would be naive to not explore other possibilities that would further scientific development. What genetic mutations have accutually taken place that have evolved whole species in our lifetime? I dont know of any and even if there are, there are so few cases so how can you then turn round and say we evolved from nothing. Everyone agrees that natural selection takes place but accutual genetic mutation evolution is a patchy theory to say the least, not to mention the big bang and other theories that are taught as science!

    explanation being that if such evolutionary advances were made so quickly, there wouldnt be time for the strong to become strong before they died out
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    changes happen slowly over time, so adaptions due to genetic changes "evolution" can be proven and well esthablished, be a pretty useless thing to do if another improvement came along ontop of the first one, and then the first was found to be faulty
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Googler wrote:
    There are too many holes in the theory of evolution to simply state it as the only possibility and it would be naive to not explore other possibilities that would further scientific development. What genetic mutations have accutually taken place that have evolved whole species in our lifetime? I dont know of any and even if there are, there are so few cases so how can you then turn round and say we evolved from nothing. Everyone agrees that natural selection takes place but accutual genetic mutation evolution is a patchy theory to say the least, not to mention the big bang and other theories that are taught as science!

    Of course there's not going to be genetic mutations in our lifetime. To think that there would be is to misunderstand evolutionary theory. It works over billions of years.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Googler wrote:
    There are too many holes in the theory of evolution to simply state it as the only possibility and it would be naive to not explore other possibilities that would further scientific development. What genetic mutations have accutually taken place that have evolved whole species in our lifetime? I dont know of any and even if there are, there are so few cases so how can you then turn round and say we evolved from nothing. Everyone agrees that natural selection takes place but accutual genetic mutation evolution is a patchy theory to say the least, not to mention the big bang and other theories that are taught as science!

    What are the holes in evolutionary theory?? Just stating that does not make that statement true you need examples...

    Genetic mutation does happen, a quick google and i find a couple of sites which give examples... Remember that for complex species which take a long time to reproduce and reprdouce slowly it takes time for any differences to mount up. bacteria which develop immunities to antibolictics is due to natural selection.

    Immunity and Arms Race
    As could be predicted, bacteria began to exchange their antibiotic-resistance genes among each other in the form of easily transferable plasmids. New mutations also sprang up quickly, and existing resistance genes were improved due to natural selection. The ubiquity of antibiotics worked in the bacteria's favor, because they drugs would decimate all but the hardiest and most resistant bacteria in any population. These few survivors would then enjoy a bonanza of feeding, growth, and reproduction, which led to new infections and more doses of antibiotics, which again weeded out the less-adapted, and so on in a vicious cycle. The result was that bacteria quickly evolved resistance to the mainstays of the antibiotic arsenal, and consequently newer drugs were introduced, to which the bacteria then adapted further. The ultimate result of this evolution is that bacteria are now being noted that are resistant to all known antibiotics, including "last-resort" drugs and even synthetic drugs. This last implies gradual refinement of spontaneous mutations, since bacteria could not have had preexisting genes for resistance to synthetic compounds.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    marv wrote:
    What are the holes in evolutionary theory?? Just stating that does not make that statement true you need examples...

    The fact that the eye has never evolved throughout time.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's not true though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    The fact that the eye has never evolved throughout time.

    When Darwin first proposed his theory of evolution he did admit that the development of the eye is difficult to explain... Though biologists have proposed theories which explain how the eye could develop...

    Evolution of the Eye
    Through natural selection, different types of eyes have emerged in evolutionary history -- and the human eye isn't even the best one, from some standpoints. Because blood vessels run across the surface of the retina instead of beneath it, it's easy for the vessels to proliferate or leak and impair vision. So, the evolution theorists say, the anti-evolution argument that life was created by an "intelligent designer" doesn't hold water: If God or some other omnipotent force was responsible for the human eye, it was something of a botched design.

    Evolution as a theory can be observed and can be proven by experiments and studies. It is not complete but then most scientific theory humanity has developed does not give the complete picture, we still have pieces missing from the jigsaw puzzle (possibly some corners and a bit of the sky).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    But ID or even full-blown Creationism can and is already taught in schools- during religion lessons.

    what makes me angry is not only is this fact overly true, they ram the christian outlook down your throat.

    I'm not Christian, i haven't been brought up in a christian household, but i do understand the view point because living in a christian country the majority of my life you do understand it somewhat.

    but RE lessons are almost conversion lessons, i really feel that religion lessons should be kept out of schools. philosophy lessons of a multi-faith basis and a non faith basis. i fed up of having stuff i don't believe rammed down my neck.

    if parents want their kids to learn about their faith then they should send them a sunday school or teach them at home.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    turlough wrote:
    The fact that the eye has never evolved throughout time.


    the intelligent design concept doesn't explain how the 'designer' changed it though does it, or when it happened?

    and as marv pointed, jst because we dont know the whole picture, doesn't mean what we have so far in terms of understanding is completly useless

    theres like 1 preditced particle we haven't observed yet from the 3 fermion types of the fundamental particles, and we're unsure if a neutrino has neglibable mass or no mass, though things are pointing towards negliable mass -the neotrino was only introduced to balance the mass, and was then detected 10-20 years later, we're also unsure why there is only 3 types. this doesn't mean theres a big flaw in the fundamental particle theory

    http://www.pheno.info/hottopics/neutrinoshavemass/

    and the darwinian survival of the fittest obviously wouldnt apply in some situations, simply because some species enter into symbiotic relationships etc as is what is expected to have happened with us having mitochondria

    ps - wheresmyplacebo
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The fact that the eye has never evolved throughout time.

    Things that work stop evolving until there is a change in the environment to spur it on. Evolution could happen very quickly in extreme conditions, then calm down again.

    Sharks don't evolve. Crocodiles have been the same for christ knows how long. And so forth. Why? No pressure to change from anywhere.

    Humans have apparently stopped evolving, and now their "culture" does instead. Meme theory. Christianity was a "good" theory when people were killing each other at random and praying to rocks while covered in elephant dung. Now it's a bag of shite, and is dying out, going extinct.

    The biggest hole in evolutionary theory is that there is no definite chance that a new, better trait will be passed on. It's a 50/50 crap-shoot. If it is passed on, then there's still a 50/50 chance that it will be passed on with some weaker traits that negate it. Also, it's then got a 50/50 chance of being passed on again next generation.

    So, without some guiding force picking and choosing what's hot and what's not, even the most beneficial mutations could never proliferate. There is a guiding force though - DNA. DNA chooses what to use and to lose, it decides, it designs.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are more holes in the theory of evolution that is a fact and even scientists would agree. Where is the fossil evidence of the people who supposidely evolved from apes to humans and the evidence of the rest of earths species. Scientists have of course discovered some freak fossils but if it takes billions of years for these mutations to take place, where are the millions of fossils to back up the theory? Odviously also it has taken less than billions of years for humans to evolve from apes because apparently we didnt exist before the dinosaurs, 65 million years ago?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Where is the fossil evidence of the people who supposidely evolved from apes to humans and the evidence of the rest of earths species

    There is hardly any evidence of early humans full stop. The total number of bones so far found would fit in the back of a transit if you weren't too fussy how you stacked them. Land animals in general aren't ever going to be made into fossils, the fossil record in something daft like 99.8% creatures who spent most of their time in water.

    There's plenty of evidence for aquatic ones.
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