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late abortion woman to be prosecuted

Story.

Anyone going to attempt to justify this action?

Still, the HateMail will be happy. Prosecuting a woman who's had an abortion, and she's foreign to boot!
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pretty ppor do's that, poor woman has an abortion, late one and then she has to face charges and trial? wack.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Abortions that late are against the law, even if the law is an arse, the Police have to investigate if they are given enough evidence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All started with a whistleblower on a pro-life website. Ms Edwardes of the Torygraph then got wind, and it eventually turned to this. I think it's just to get more publicity and momentum to get the legal limit dropped. Annoying enough that wolf in sheep's clothing Gianna Jessen is doing the rounds in the UK. I've always believed it should be as early as possible and as late as necessary, but UK and Spanish laws don't believe that, and it's the women who will suffer. Not that we haven't had paragons of virtue who work for papers like that in for abortions, but theirs are the only moral ones, so it's ok.

    This lady is also being investigated. I sure feel safer walking the streets at night.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is a very harsh decision and I believe unfair as she was clearly only young when she had the abortion, but is you read the ABORTION ACT 1967 its against the law.

    Don't ask my why I stayed this act last year in criminal law.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Little_one wrote:
    It is a very harsh decision and I believe unfair as she was clearly only young when she had the abortion, but is you read the ABORTION ACT 1967 its against the law.

    Don't ask my why I stayed this act last year in criminal law.

    Sorry link does not work, see below.

    Abortion Act 1967, Ch. 87, s. 1 (Eng.)

    1 Medical termination of pregnancy



    (1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith--

    [(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman orany existing children of her family; or

    (b) that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

    (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or

    (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped].

    (2) In determining whether the continuance of a pregnancy would involve such risk of injury to health as is mentioned in paragraph (a) [or (b)] of subsection (1) of this section, account may be taken of the pregnant woman's actual or reasonably foreseeable environment.

    (3) Except as provided by subsection (4) of this section, any treatment for the termination of pregnancy must be carried out in a hospital vested in [the Secretary of State for the purposes of his functions under the National Health Service Act 1977 or the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 [or in a hospital vested in [a Primary Care Trust or] a National Health Service trust] [or an NHS foundation trust] or in a place approved for the purposes of this section by the Secretary of State].

    [(3A) The power under subsection (3) of this section to approve a place includes power, in relation to treatment consisting primarily in the use of such medicines as may be specified in the approval and carried out in such manner as may be so specified, to approve a class of places.]

    (4) Subsection (3) of this section, and so much of subsection (1) as relates to the opinion of two registered medical practitioners, shall not apply to the termination of a pregnancy by a registered medical practitioner in a case where he is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the termination is immediately necessary to save the life or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's against the law, the GP broke the law and must face the consequences.

    And there is a case for lowering the abortion limit, I don't think you have to be a fundamentalist pro-life evangelical Christian to see that.

    BBC article
    From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement.... From 18 weeks, they can open their eyes although most doctors thought eyelids were fused until 26 weeks At 22 weeks gestation babies are capable of fine hand and finger movements. In a short space of time this baby scratches, rubs and pats his cheek before doing the same to his nose.

    While nowhere near as many abortions are carried out after 20 weeks than pro-life groups would suggest I find the idea of killing a baby capable of 'fine hand and finger movements' and able to scratch and rub very uncomfortable and disturbing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement.... From 18 weeks, they can open their eyes although most doctors thought eyelids were fused until 26 weeks At 22 weeks gestation babies are capable of fine hand and finger movements. In a short space of time this baby scratches, rubs and pats his cheek before doing the same to his nose.

    So?... The woman pregnant funnily enough can do all that, and more! I don't think reflexes etc justifies reducing an abortion limit, especially as late term abortions are carried out under a general anaesthetic. I've done ultrasound scanning for abortions 15 weeks - 23 weeks and if the woman is under a general, so is the foetus, and despite the 'Silent Scream's' claims, I've yet to see a foetus under a GA move about, kick or protest against the dilators and forceps prodding against it.

    It's all very nice to look at pregnancy and abortion from the view of the foetus, but the more important sentient being involved, i.e. the woman doesn't go skipping into an abortion clinic, and sometimes the reasons behind the abortion are more uncomfortable and disturbing than what a foetus can do in the uterus.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go_away wrote:
    So?... The woman pregnant funnily enough can do all that, and more!

    Erm indeed, but what has that got to do with anything? Nobody is talking of 'aborting' the pregnant woman.
    go_away wrote:
    I don't think reflexes etc justifies reducing an abortion limit, especially as late term abortions are carried out under a general anaesthetic. I've done ultrasound scanning for abortions 15 weeks - 23 weeks and if the woman is under a general, so is the foetus, and despite the 'Silent Scream's' claims, I've yet to see a foetus under a GA move about, kick or protest against the dilators and forceps prodding against it.

    That's not the issue, or it's not for me. By applying that logic it would be okay to kill a human under a general anasethetic.

    What I feel uncomfortable about is killing something that has almost all of the attributes of a baby that’s been born.
    go_away wrote:
    It's all very nice to look at pregnancy and abortion from the view of the foetus, but the more important sentient being involved, i.e. the woman doesn't go skipping into an abortion clinic, and sometimes the reasons behind the abortion are more uncomfortable and disturbing than what a foetus can do in the uterus.

    Foetus? At 22 weeks that 'foetus' is a baby. Those pictures justify that. And I wouldn't suggest that women 'go skipping into an abortion clinic' and anybody who does is pretty sick. The fact remains, at 20 weeks you're not talking about a mere collection of cells - it's a baby that has many of the attributes of a baby that has been born. I could not condone that with a clear conscience, according to most surveys on this topic most people feel similarly. I don't disrespect people who feel differently and while I am 'pro-life' I'm not 'anti-choice' - but I do think people condoning abortions at that stage are condoning something very wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ---
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm indeed, but what has that got to do with anything? Nobody is talking of 'aborting' the pregnant woman.

    No, but people are quite happy to talk of embryos and foetuses 'walking' in the uterus, yawning, kicking, coming up with a cure for the common cold as if human beings have never done such things before. It's there purely to prescribe sentimental value to the foetus and take the focus away from the woman who is pregnant.
    What I feel uncomfortable about is killing something that has almost all of the attributes of a baby that’s been born.

    Embryos have many physical attributes at a much earlier gestation, which include fully formed organs (not including the nervous system). If you're talking about lowering the legal limit purely by what has been formed (not taking into accound attirubutes of personhood, which don't apply to the unborn) then it would be a much earlier gestation.
    At 22 weeks that 'foetus' is a baby. Those pictures justify that

    Umm, no, it's still a foetus. The HEFA recognises it's a foetus from the 8th week until birth, and the majority of organisations also acknowledge that. I haven't seen a picture of a embryo or foetus inside the uterus to show me that it's a 'baby' and that includes 4D ultrasounding.
    At 20 weeks you're not talking about a mere collection of cells.

    I'm well aware of that, I've seen the products of that in a sluice room, and I've also seen premature neonates. No one said it's cutesy or implied that at 20 weeks it looks like a blastocyst. I still don't see why development should mean it's 'right to live' overrides the woman's right to bodily integrity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, the Pro-death fanaticism is a calculated and actively malicious attack on a world they do not understand and so, despise.

    You forgot to mention that we find it a huge turn on
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ---
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear me, I was waiting for a better insult than that. Guess your run holding the torch of offensiveness has been aborted. Every pun intended.

    Back on topic, does anyone know if women over the LLA are sent to Kansas to George Tiller?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Anyone going to attempt to justify this action?
    ...maybe. Abortions are legal in the UK right? And I think I'm safe in assuming that late term abortions are illegal. As well they should be, you don't go through the first two trimesters and when you get to the third go "oops, didn't notice I was pregnant better take care of that". Abortions are a last resort, why make em worse by actually stopping a beating heart?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Abortions are legal in the UK right?

    Nope, it's still a criminal offence if it's not done within the guidelines of the Abortion Act of 1967.
    And I think I'm safe in assuming that late term abortions are illegal

    No they're not. For foetal abnormality and to save the life of the woman, it's legal up until birth. For the majority, the upper limit is 23 weeks and 6 days.
    Abortions are a last resort, why make em worse by actually stopping a beating heart?

    Bit confused by that statement, but if you're referring to the foetus, the heart starts beating after about 18 days.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bit confused by that statement, but if you're referring to the foetus, the heart starts beating after about 18 days.
    it does? Wow, guess I should take another sex ed class before I start shooting my mouth off .lol. The truth of the matter is that I probably don't have even a near rudimentary knowledge of the complexities of pregnancy, but the way I figure it is that after a while aborting a developing fetus gets to be immoral (excepting of course in cases of fetal abnormality and the life of the mother).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It does indeed, otherwise it wouldn't grow to be any bigger than 2mm! :p

    As I've stated previously, I've believed that abortion should be as early as possible and as late as necessary. That doesn't take the foetus into account in either circumstances because as a pro-choicer I side with the woman every time, even if I don't like the reasons behind the termination, it's not my place to judge. The UK has based it's limits around foetal viability, I believe, and the majority of surgeons I've spoken to on the matter believe it will drop in the next couple of years anyway to around 18/20 weeks, whether people like it or not. I think last time it was dropped was in the early 1990s when the cut off point was 28 weeks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go_away wrote:
    As I've stated previously, I've believed that abortion should be as early as possible and as late as necessary. That doesn't take the foetus into account in either circumstances because as a pro-choicer I side with the woman every time, even if I don't like the reasons behind the termination, it's not my place to judge.
    I would tend to disagree, it is our place to judge, that is why we are empowered to make laws banning and legalizing abortion. I hate to come off as one of those right wing "your killing unborn babies" types but their argument does have some merit. I know that in almost all cases the woman takes the decision very seriously, it's not like they're sitting there saying "I feel like having an abortion today, tra la la la la". But honestly, aside from medical complications why should women have the option of a late term abortion? I mean (and I know I am treading on dangerous ground here because like I said, I don't really know the finer points of pregnancy) the baby is nearly fully developed, it almost boarders on infanticide
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    infanticide
    Well it's feticide isn't it but that's not the point. Whether you call it a fetus or a baby is just semantics. A developing fetus that was planned and wanted is always called a baby by the parents; whereas a fetus which is to be aborted is never referred to as a baby. I don't have a problem with people choosing what they call it, as long as that is not the basis of your argument.

    Abortions after 24 weeks for social reasons are not legal in this country. If you disagree with that law, fair enough, but this prosecution is fair game.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    Story.

    Anyone going to attempt to justify this action?

    Still, the HateMail will be happy. Prosecuting a woman who's had an abortion, and she's foreign to boot!


    Where does it say she's Foreign ... just because her surname isn't Smith or Jones don't mean she isn't British.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Where does it say she's Foreign ... just because her surname isn't Smith or Jones don't mean she isn't British.
    racist don't care about a persons nationality though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But honestly, aside from medical complications why should women have the option of a late term abortion?

    You would have to read the stories from the individual women who have chosen to go down that route. I know that Marie Stopes did a publication on late term abortion, but like MSI are, they like to pack in a lot of their own blurb and comment rather than what the women went through. If you're interested, it's here

    I also think you should give yourself a crash course in embryology (seeing as Kentish and I had to go through it on a compulsary basis :p )

    Visembryo
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you don't go through the first two trimesters and when you get to the third go "oops, didn't notice I was pregnant better take care of that".
    Some women (and girls) don't know they are pregnant until very late into the pregnancy.

    Also from what I understand you can have to wait a while from the day you decide to the day of the abortion. Does anyone know what typical wait are like right now? This must be an awful time to go through.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also from what I understand you can have to wait a while from the day you decide to the day of the abortion

    That depends on a lot of things. One of them is money. If you're lucky enough to have over £500 on you, are in the London area and haven't eaten since midnight, you could have a termination tomorrow if you wanted to, privately, if they have a slot.

    If you don't and decide to go via then NHS then I've heard some women have waited anything between 2 and 6 weeks. Which goes by very quickly/slowly if you're 14 weeks at the time you found out about the pregnancy. God help you if you've only been in the country a few weeks and don't know anyone, or the language.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go_away wrote:
    That depends on a lot of things. One of them is money. If you're lucky enough to have over £500
    :eek: I never knew they cost that much. I always thought it was just a couple of hundred.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Prices vary, but if you're under 12 weeks and are happy to have no pain relief and be awake throughout the entire thing, it's just under £500. Prices go up with sedation and gestation. If you're one of the unlucky ones who has to pay for a surgical abortion from 19 weeks up, you're looking at £1160. And if you live in Ireland you have to pay for flights, additional travel costs and accommodation.

    I don't deal with finances at the clinic (and I don't take fees either, nor would I want to). It's the side of work that I hate, even though half of the ladies we see had the NHS pay for their treatment. But, as much as I hate to say it, MSI and BPAS are primarily businesses. Luckily, the clients don't have any exposure to that side of the team as the admin, doctors and nurses are some of the kindest people you'd meet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Doctor and the mother should be executed.

    Same goes for most pre-meditated murderers and accomplices.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thats a wack post above.

    So the woman has an abortion abroad, and that is illegal here but the crim e is commited in another country, is it legalt o have that late an abortion in that other country? I mean if its a crime then why isn't their a prosecution in that country instead of here? or not as suitable may be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    that poster is a previously returning poster known as monocrat. He has some issues I think.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Walkindude wrote:
    thats a wack post above.

    So the woman has an abortion abroad, and that is illegal here but the crim e is commited in another country, is it legalt o have that late an abortion in that other country? I mean if its a crime then why isn't their a prosecution in that country instead of here? or not as suitable may be.
    I say "should". I think abortion is murder, not everybody agrees, and I think pre-meditated murder usually deserves death penalty, again, not everyone agrees. But I like that view.
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