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Windfall tax for oil companies at last

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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Don't be daft. I am saying that it's theft for a good or bad (depending on your opinion) cause. It's still theft.
    No it's not. The taxation system ain't theft I'm afraid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The profit is relative to company size post tax they make 5% margin. Many companies make far wider margins, the tax hike will only stifle north sea development and increase imports reducing tax take for the treasury, also raising energy costs. If 30% coporation tax is fair for all other companies then its fair for oil companies.
    This is about how Brown cant read a balance sheet not social justice.
    Your 'shit loads of tax' is unconvincing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No it's not. The taxation system ain't theft I'm afraid.

    Please provide the facts that you base your opinion on.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation
    A tax is a compulsory charge or other levy imposed on an individual

    Extortion -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
    Extortion is distinguished from robbery. In robbery, the offender steals goods from the victim whilst threatening him with immediate force. In extortion, the victim willingly turns the goods over to avoid a threatened later violence or other harm.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft
    Theft (also known as stealing) is, in general, the wrongful taking of someone else's property without that person's willful consent
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    No it's not. The taxation system ain't theft I'm afraid.
    i agree aladdin.
    i'm for a high tax economy.
    i see tax as the pot on the family table where you all put some cash in on a friday night to help keep everything running.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The profit is relative to company size post tax they make 5% margin.
    Not that I don't believe you (unlike you about me, judging by your comment below) but could you post some links to those figures? I'd be interested to see a breakdown of turnover and profits for the likes of Shell and BP.
    Many companies make far wider margins, the tax hike will only stifle north sea development and increase imports reducing tax take for the treasury, also raising energy costs. If 30% coporation tax is fair for all other companies then its fair for oil companies.
    Oil companies are special circumstances, and as such they should be treated.

    There is a very good argument for the government to control oil. The oil companies should count themselves lucky they are allowed to control and sell something so basic and important to modern day world as oil.

    And given that they're racking nine billion pounds profit per year, I wouldn't shed too many tears for them if I were you...

    Your 'shit loads of tax' is unconvincing.
    Tough luck. Chances are I pay at least twice as much as you, if not three times. And I do so happily.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Taxes don't fall under the category of "theft" or "extortion" and you know it very well. And no dictionary searches and definition comparisons are going to change that I'm afraid.

    Sorry you don't believe in governments. Sorry you don't believe in society. Sorry you don't believe in people. Sorry you don't believe in laws and rules. But they exist, believe it or not. If you disagree with the rest of the country then perhaps you should disengage yourself from the system altogether, find a deserted territory, build your own house and grow your own food.

    (And of course, educate your own children, build your own roads and infrastructures around you, become your own doctor, create your own welfare system for when you cannot provide for yourself, contract out your own police, defence forces and firefighters, etc etc etc ad infinitum).

    But at least that way you won't have to pay taxes any more and no one would be extortioning and thieving from you. Small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Taxing oil companies heavily will just distort future investment in refinery capacity. The high profits now are temporary signals for how the firms should act in the future. The high oil prices are temporary and windfall taxes risk changing the future actions of the firms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Taxes don't fall under the category of "theft" or "extortion" and you know it very well. And no dictionary searches and definition comparisons are going to change that I'm afraid.

    Then tell me what the factual difference is between them. you can't. That's why you haven't done it yet. Just admit your wrong and we can move on. Sorry if showing you that the three words theft, tax and extortion are near synonyms doesn't get you to look at your irrational belief objectively.

    Look I am confused by your post. You say it's not theft and then say it is. Which are you picking? You say it's real and you say it's a belief. Which one are you plumping for?

    Btw, anything that's done under the guise of consent can be done BY consent.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Then tell me what the factual difference is between them. you can't. That's why you haven't done it yet.
    I've done it. Read through the thread again, this time a little more carefully. :rolleyes:
    Just admit your wrong and we can move on. Sorry if showing you that the three words theft, tax and extortion are near synonyms doesn't get you to look at your irrational belief objectively.
    Yes, perhaps I should admit I'm wrong. I mean, what hope there can be of making see sense to a man who doesn't believe countries, laws, citizens or societies exist?

    Might as well sit by an anthill and try to talk the ants out of taking away the bread crumbs from my sandwich.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've done it. Read through the thread again, this time a little more carefully. :rolleyes:

    You've only provided opinion and assertion Al. No facts yet.

    Man tells other man that he will kidnap him and put him in a cage unless he gives him things, This is the fact of the situation.

    You've said -
    Problem Klintock I don't see taxation as theft at all.

    No facts here.
    Taxation is good. Exortion is bad.

    No facts here.
    Taxation helps others. Extortion helps nobody.

    No facts here.
    Taxation is morally right. Extortion is morally wrong.

    No facts here.
    But the money hasn't been stolen.

    No facts here.
    Taxes don't fall under the category of "theft" or "extortion" and you know it very well.

    No facts here.
    No it's not. The taxation system ain't theft I'm afraid.

    No facts here either.

    All you've done is relay your opinion of taxations uses and to say I am wrong. You have provided no facts whatsoever. In the absence of these I will have to conclude you know that taxation is theft and you are just pissing about. :wave:
    Yes, perhaps I should admit I'm wrong. I mean, what hope there can be of making see sense to a man who doesn't believe countries, laws, citizens or societies exist?

    It's not a belief, it's what the fact of the matter is. The fact that you acknowledge they are beliefs also shows me that you know I am correct.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yep. Read a bit of Marx, he talks about this in Capital.

    Why is identifying people as proletariat or bourgeoisie any better than identifying them as consumers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    You've only provided opinion and assertion Al. No facts yet.
    Man tells other man that he will kidnap him and put him in a cage unless he gives him things, This is the fact of the situation.
    Another contender for the Poorest Analogy in History.
    You've said -

    "Taxation is good. Exortion is bad."

    No facts here.
    Yes there are but never mind eh?


    "Taxation helps others. Extortion helps nobody."

    No facts here.
    Yes there are but never mind eh?

    "Taxation is morally right. Extortion is morally wrong."
    No facts here.
    Yes there are but never mind eh?


    All you've done is relay your opinion of taxations uses and to say I am wrong. You have provided no facts whatsoever. In the absence of these I will have to conclude you know that taxation is theft and you are just pissing about. :wave:
    Yes I have but then I wouldn't expect anything more from a man who pretends countries, citizens and societies don't exist and refused to acknowledge the trillions upon trillions of facts proving this.


    Utopia is that way
    > :wave:


    It's not a belief, it's what the fact of the matter is. The fact that you acknowledge they are beliefs also shows me that you know I am correct.
    Of course you are Klintock, of course you are. And everyone else on earth is wrong. :lol:

    We've already gone through all of this haven't we?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Another contender for the Poorest Analogy in History.

    Please describe to me how you think taxation works.
    Yes there are but never mind eh?
    ad infinitum!

    You can't tell the difference between an opinion and a fact. Shame for you.

    To say something is good or bad is an opinion. To say something is moral or not is to state an opinion. etc.

    And that's all you've done.
    Yes I have but then I wouldn't expect anything more from a man who pretends countries, citizens and societies don't exist and refused to acknowledge the trillions upon trillions of facts proving this.

    You never provided any facts. You've got to be trolling.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Please describe to me how you think taxation works.
    What would be the point? :rolleyes:


    You can't tell the difference between an opinion and a fact. Shame for you.
    Coming from the man who can't tell the difference between reality and utopia and who appears to have a perception problem with abstract objects...
    To say something is good or bad is an opinion. To say something is moral or not is to state an opinion. etc.

    And that's all you've done.
    No it's not. No when it's something as clear cut as whether helping others is good, and extortioning others is bad.

    But then you are the one who has problem grasping the concept that non physical things and abstract concepts can be facts, not me.

    You never provided any facts. You've got to be trolling.
    LOL!!!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What would be the point? :rolleyes:

    Well, if you can do it without showing that it's extortion I'll buy you a gold clock. The reason you are avoiding doing it is that you know i am correct.
    Coming from the man who can't tell the difference between reality and utopia and who appears to have a perception problem with abstract objects...

    Has nothing to do with you providing some facts, does it? Let's have some then.
    No it's not. No when it's something as clear cut as whether helping others is good, and extortioning others is bad.

    Taxation is money taken from people using the threat of force/imprisonment. If you refuse they take it anyway without your permission. True or false?

    That money can then be used to buy nuclear warheads or hospitals. Whether you like nuclear warheads or hospitals does not change how the money is obtained.
    But then you are the one who has problem grasping the concept that non physical things and abstract concepts can be facts, not me.

    There are no non physical things, nitwit. Theres just one world, the real, physical one. Your thoughts are just that - thoughts. they have no physical presence. It's not that difficult, surely to fuck? I agree that thoughts can affect behaviour, which is why it's important to know what's real, what's not and what's the difference.

    Anyway, stop stalling and lets have those facts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Well, if you can do it without showing that it's extortion I'll buy you a gold clock. The reason you are avoiding doing it is that you know i am correct.
    Taxes aren't a fucking extortion or a fucking theft. Give it a rest already will you? :rolleyes:


    There are no non physical things, nitwit.
    I rest my case...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Taxes aren't a fucking extortion or a fucking theft. Give it a rest already will you? :rolleyes:

    So you say. Still no facts though.

    Describe taxation using facts alone. You still haven't provided any. I've got you in a corner and you know it. Stop pissing about, admit you are wrong and we can move on.
    I rest my case...

    So, you are saying that things that don't exist do? I will get some mental health help for you, I think you need it.

    Anyway, stop stalling and lets have those facts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4502470.stm

    Sadly only on North Sea producers by the sounds of it.

    Still, a long overdue move.

    Anyone objects? Wouldn't be surprised if someone did... :D

    In an attempt to drag us back to the question.

    I think it is short sighted, a bit too high, but something which should be done. Except of course it will just come out of our pockets and not their profits.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    So you say. Still no facts though.

    Describe taxation using facts alone. You still haven't provided any. I've got you in a corner and you know it. Stop pissing about, admit you are wrong and we can move on.
    Let's make it veeeeeeeeeeeeery clear for you shall we:

    Countries exist- fact.

    Societies exist- fact.

    It is the view of practically every country and society (ours certainly one of them) that we should all contribute towards the wellbeing of others and society in general. This is done by collecting money deducted mainly from earnings though also from purchases and services. This is called taxation- fact.

    Taxation thus has nothing to do with "theft" or "extortion", which are two different things altogether- fact.

    Comprende now? :rolleyes:


    So, you are saying that things that don't exist do? I will get some mental health help for you, I think you need it.
    No, you are the one denying just about every other thing (or entity, or object, or fact) on this earth doesn't exist.

    You are the one who needs to seek help in that respect.

    Reminds us again how some feelings such as anger, expectation, boredom or curiosity "don't exist", since you cannot measure them or see them in a physical way? That was one of the funniest and most extraordinary things you have claimed yet.

    While you are at it Klintock, answer me something else. Do cities exist? Does London exist?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    In an attempt to drag us back to the question.

    I think it is short sighted, a bit too high, but something which should be done. Except of course it will just come out of our pockets and not their profits.
    They shouldn't really. If they were to put the prices up as a result of the windfall tax, then that surely should give the government green light to take the business away from them or impose the biggest fine in the history of mankind.

    Because they can afford such windfall tax without batting an eyelid, and certainly without having to sack, demote or cut wages for a single worker, or increase the price of petrol by even 1/100 of a pence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Why is identifying people as proletariat or bourgeoisie any better than identifying them as consumers?

    way to miss the point
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    They shouldn't really. If they were to put the prices up as a result of the windfall tax, then that surely should give the government green light to take the business away from them or impose the biggest fine in the history of mankind.

    And you dont think that an action of this nature might have a slight destablising effect on the economy?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Countries exist- fact.

    Theres no evidence for this. Have a view from space -

    http://3dnworld.com/users/1/images/UltimateEarth.jpg
    Societies exist- fact.

    Or this. have a picture of a group of people.

    http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/pics/3630.jpg

    No evidence of that either. Just individuals standing next to each other.
    It is the view of practically every country and society (ours certainly one of them) that we should all contribute towards the wellbeing of others and society in general.

    Opinion about other people's opinions. Still no facts about how taxation operates. It's one person taking from another using force or the threat of force. i.e. it's theft or extortion. What is a society, factually? What is a country, factually?
    This is done by collecting money deducted mainly from earnings though also from purchases and services.

    And people pay this voluntarily? No. They pay because they know that they will get "in trouble" if they don't. This is extortion.
    This is called taxation- fact.

    I earn a hundred pounds. Someone from the "tax office" states that I owe them £25 of it. I refuse. They kidnap me, take my things and sell them against my will. This is also tax. I can't believe that someone would be so stupid as to suggest that tax isn't theft.
    Reminds us again how some feelings such as anger, expectation, boredom or curiosity "don't exist", since you cannot measure them or see them in a physical way?

    Errr...no. I said those things do exist because you can measure tham in a physical way. I even know how to do it.
    While you are at it Klintock, answer me something else. Do cities exist? Does London exist?

    Nope. Cities and towns do not exist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    way to miss the point

    Another thoughtful post there Blagsta, no surprise you have 12,000 posts, 10,000 are only 10 words long...........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Theres no evidence for this. Have a view from space -

    http://3dnworld.com/users/1/images/UltimateEarth.jpg
    We've been through this before and frankly I'm surprised you would want to go down the same route again...


    Or this. have a picture of a group of people.

    http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/pics/3630.jpg

    No evidence of that either. Just individuals standing next to each other.
    You need help.


    Opinion about other people's opinions. Still no facts about how taxation operates. It's one person taking from another using force or the threat of force. i.e. it's theft or extortion. What is a society, factually? What is a country, factually?
    You've been living all your life in one and you don't know?


    And people pay this voluntarily? No. They pay because they know that they will get "in trouble" if they don't. This is extortion.
    No. It's the law.

    P.S. Please spare us all any questions asking "what is the law" or "do laws exist" eh?


    I earn a hundred pounds. Someone from the "tax office" states that I owe them £25 of it. I refuse. They kidnap me, take my things and sell them against my will. This is also tax. I can't believe that someone would be so stupid as to suggest that tax isn't theft.
    Incredible isn't it. Only the other day I met someone who claimed there is no such thing as countries, cities, people or society. Makes you wonder doesn't it?


    Errr...no. I said those things do exist because you can measure tham in a physical way. I even know how to do it.
    I thought you were a fan of facts. :rolleyes: Do please tell us how to measure such emotions in a physical way... seeing as no scientist on this planet hasn't got the foggiest idea how to do it.

    In line for the next Nobel Prize are you?


    Nope. Cities and towns do not exist.
    Jesus fucking Christ almighty...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    And you dont think that an action of this nature might have a slight destablising effect on the economy?
    No I don't think it will. But even if it does, we shouln't and cannot bow to corporate theft and bullying.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    No I don't think it will. But even if it does, we shouln't and cannot bow to corporate theft and bullying.

    So the government just taking over a large multi-national wouldn't have an effect on investment in the UK?

    On that basis I presume you back the Russian government in taking over oil companies there?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Another thoughtful post there Blagsta, no surprise you have 12,000 posts, 10,000 are only 10 words long...........

    I'm posting from work, I don't have time to go into how and why you've completely misunderstood Marx. However, every time I do go into depth on something, it tends to get ignored. If you are interested though, Marx's analysis of capitalism is not about "identifying" people as proles and bourgiose. What it is about is an analysis of the power relations and social relaltions in a capitalist economic system and how that influences how we view each other, how it influences culture and ideology (base and superstructure) and how it become all pervasive (commodity form). As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a Marx scholar by any means, but that is a very basic precis, as much as I can do from work at the moment anyhow.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nope. Cities and towns do not exist.

    That's me out of a job then :crying:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    No I don't think it will. But even if it does, we shouln't and cannot bow to corporate theft and bullying.


    But we should bow to Government Theft and bullying???
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