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And your whole spiel is a misunderstanding of what "left wing" means. To be "left wing" means that you must accept the idea of government, because that's where the phrase comes from.
While socialism is/can be seen as left wing or right wing by those who consider using state violence to get their own way i.e. pro-statists, left or right wingers cannot be socialist. It's like having a left wing libertarian or right wing libertarian. As the fundamental idea behind both socialism and libertarianism is to get rid of the "state" then how can they be left wing or right wing in their application of policy?
They don't have any policy to implement, unless you count "doing as little as possible and letting people get on with it as best they can" as policy.
Those similarities being their willingness to use the largest corporation there is, to use as much violence as they want or feel they need to, to inevitably centralise, to have a ruling class etc etc. Same system, different people running it. As the system itself is the problem.......
You don't seem to consider that it's possible for someone to be socialist only to their own perceived ethnic group and a facist to everyone else either.
I've not said anything about socialism or facism. I deliberately used the terms left and right wing. And like FTP you're missing the point - the BNP are not socialist, but it could certainly be argued that some of their policies are left wing (and whilst socialism may be based on a class-analysis of society, that's not neccessarily true 'left-wing' thinking as a whole).
Systems i.e. socialism, anarchism, libertarianism, voluntaryism (many names, same thing) that deny the right of the state cannot be left or right wing. The underlying principle of both is to use force to get whatever they want. i.e. they are both pro-state.
The BNP are left wing racists, not facscists.
Apart from wiping out your rubbish comments. Again, as usual. :rolleyes:
whatever you say klintock, you loon
Fair do's I must be mad. Everyone else seems to be so miserable I must be missing something important.
Although fascism began as a left wing ideology.
The first Fascist programme officially adopted in June 1919 was very left wing. The programme demanded universal suffrage from 18 for all including women, an electoral system based on PR, a lowering of the minimum age of deputies from 31 to 25, abolition of the monarchy/upper house, the Senate and hereditary titles; Chamber of Deputies to form a National Assembly which would decide what form of government should emerge from a Fascist revolution; a maximum eight hour working day; worker’s representation in the management of industry; confiscation of 85% of war profits (Profits made by industry during WWI), confiscation of ecclesiastical property/land from the rich and a progressive tax on capital.
While it may be true that some socialists tried to find a "third way", to describe fascism as beggining from left wing ideology would be entirely wrong. It actually grew from opposition to communism and gained massive support from capitalists, the church and land owners.
Well I was taking the piss out of myself, but there ya go.
Fascism did begin from a left wing ideology. And unsurprisingly for somebody who was for a large section of his life a diehard Socialist Mussolini himself never totally abandoned his left wing values; he despised the bourgeois way of live above all else and according to one of his biographers – Nicholas Farrell ‘remained at heart a Socialist to his dying day.’
While I think Farrell goes too far, that fascism began from a left wing ideology is pretty undeniable. It’s understandable that as a Socialist you’re keen to distance the disgraced ideology of Fascism from the discredited ideology that you support.
While fascism did gain support from capitalists, the Church and landowners and that is why it grew – it began as a very left wing movement as the 1919 fascist programme shows. Mussolini then abandoned much of that in order to win support from those groups but that doesn’t change the fact that initially fascism was for all intents and purposes a Socialist party.
The point I was disputing was that the BNP could be considered a left wing party.
That they attempt to pursue populist policies here and there in irrelevant.....
Only in comparison to the extreme left.
So what exactly do you think left wing means then?
I'd like you to point out how New Labour are left wing.
Labour are ceratinly not on the extreme left, but they do believe in public control of certain utilities - whether that is direct ownership such as the NHS or by fully publically owned companies such as the railways. They support such things as minimum wage, maternity and paternity leave and strong regulatory control on areas such as health and safety and environment. These are not right wing policies.
While minimum wage has benefitted some people, it has also had the effect of actually driving wages down in a lot of industries. They did not introduce minimum wage because its a good socialist thing to do. They intoroduced it and set it at such a low value because actually it can have the effect of benefitting business and capital. All these are the actions of a centre right government who are actually just carrying on the neo-liberalist project started by Thatcher and Reagan.
How do I know they are left wing? Who told me they were?
Well I know as I spent 3 years learning politics ar university, who told me? a widely accliamed expert on politics thats who.
The BNP are actually a communitarian party, and communitrainism is left wing.
Also I agree with whoever said it, racism or even being not very nice does not equal facism.
Facism is a very specific ideology and it shows the ignorance of many people who labell any person or government they don't like as facist, when they clearly are not.
Except they're not are they? People have been claiming NHS is about to be privatised since 1952. The PFI isn't privatisation, but about using private funds in the public sector. I'm not a 100% supporter of PFI, but it is not privatisation
I never said they introduced minimum wage because it socialist. Socialism and left-wing are two seperate things - socialists are left-wing economics, but you can be left wing and not a socialist. You seem to be off the beleif that you can only be left wing if you follow an ideologically pure vision at the extreme. I disagree and think left wing is a line from moderates, who believe in a mixed economy to the absolute socialists who do not support any private ownership of anything.
Except that they are. Thats what PFI is, its privatisation by the back door. There is talk about privatising prisons and the benefits service too.
Way to miss the point and concentrate on being picky about semantics. OK, hows this - New Labour didn't introduce the miminum wage 'cos of left wing ideals but because it actually serves the needs of capital. Its the same with immigration - it actually benefits the needs of capital to have a pool of labour that will work hard for long hours and little pay and it drives down wages for other people. It also has the secondary benefit of dividing workers against each other.
left wing/right wing/right wing/left wing
no government
The more you want government to intervene, the more left wing you are. Labour are certainly left wing. If you grab a politics textbook written in the last few years the whole "no government" bit is usually not even mentioned in the vocabulary.
I am surprised tha Blagsta can't see that inherent in the phrases "left wing/right wing" is the idea of government. It's a measure of the current government position. Usually pro-civil liberties while making sure no one has any money to spend to exercise them, or anti-civil liberties while making sure you have more money to do that nothing with.
These days it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government is going to get in. One whose policies have been picked by the individuals who control belief in the corporations to maintain those beliefs. This is how democracy works - offer you one of two choices, neither of which benefits you.