Home Politics & Debate

Racism we don't see?

124

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is a total misunderstanding of what socialism means

    And your whole spiel is a misunderstanding of what "left wing" means. To be "left wing" means that you must accept the idea of government, because that's where the phrase comes from.

    While socialism is/can be seen as left wing or right wing by those who consider using state violence to get their own way i.e. pro-statists, left or right wingers cannot be socialist. It's like having a left wing libertarian or right wing libertarian. As the fundamental idea behind both socialism and libertarianism is to get rid of the "state" then how can they be left wing or right wing in their application of policy?

    They don't have any policy to implement, unless you count "doing as little as possible and letting people get on with it as best they can" as policy.
    They are two very distinct idealogies, no matter what similarities there appear to be on the surface.

    Those similarities being their willingness to use the largest corporation there is, to use as much violence as they want or feel they need to, to inevitably centralise, to have a ruling class etc etc. Same system, different people running it. As the system itself is the problem.......

    You don't seem to consider that it's possible for someone to be socialist only to their own perceived ethnic group and a facist to everyone else either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You make less and less sense everyday.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    This is a total misunderstanding of what socialism means. Socialism is first and foremost about having a class analysis of society - something that the likes of the BNP most definitely don't have. In fact, fascism historically has been about merging the power of the state and the corporation. Whereas, socialism has been about the working class taking over the state (or getting rid of it completely). They are two very distinct idealogies, no matter what similarities there appear to be on the surface. Only the politically naive and ill-informed suggest that the likes of the BNP are left wing.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I've not said anything about socialism or facism. I deliberately used the terms left and right wing. And like FTP you're missing the point - the BNP are not socialist, but it could certainly be argued that some of their policies are left wing (and whilst socialism may be based on a class-analysis of society, that's not neccessarily true 'left-wing' thinking as a whole).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Errrr...no. For the reasons already stated. Its not enough to look at their policies - you have to look at the ideology that informs those policies. You also have to look at those policies in relation to their other policies. In the BNP's case, it has a distinctly fascist flavour - most definitely not left wing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA is quite correct. Left and right wing are phrases from the french government. Social reformers on the left hand side of the government, and you can guess the rest.

    Systems i.e. socialism, anarchism, libertarianism, voluntaryism (many names, same thing) that deny the right of the state cannot be left or right wing. The underlying principle of both is to use force to get whatever they want. i.e. they are both pro-state.

    The BNP are left wing racists, not facscists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, thanks for the history lesson klintock. :rolleyes: And as usual, your post bears little relation to the rest of the thread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And as usual, your post bears little relation to the rest of the thread.

    Apart from wiping out your rubbish comments. Again, as usual. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol:

    whatever you say klintock, you loon
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :wave:

    Fair do's I must be mad. Everyone else seems to be so miserable I must be missing something important. :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Get over yourself
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Errrr...no. For the reasons already stated. Its not enough to look at their policies - you have to look at the ideology that informs those policies. You also have to look at those policies in relation to their other policies. In the BNP's case, it has a distinctly fascist flavour - most definitely not left wing.

    Although fascism began as a left wing ideology.

    The first Fascist programme officially adopted in June 1919 was very left wing. The programme demanded universal suffrage from 18 for all including women, an electoral system based on PR, a lowering of the minimum age of deputies from 31 to 25, abolition of the monarchy/upper house, the Senate and hereditary titles; Chamber of Deputies to form a National Assembly which would decide what form of government should emerge from a Fascist revolution; a maximum eight hour working day; worker’s representation in the management of industry; confiscation of 85% of war profits (Profits made by industry during WWI), confiscation of ecclesiastical property/land from the rich and a progressive tax on capital.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Although fascism began as a left wing ideology.

    The first Fascist programme officially adopted in June 1919 was very left wing. The programme demanded universal suffrage from 18 for all including women, an electoral system based on PR, a lowering of the minimum age of deputies from 31 to 25, abolition of the monarchy/upper house, the Senate and hereditary titles; Chamber of Deputies to form a National Assembly which would decide what form of government should emerge from a Fascist revolution; a maximum eight hour working day; worker’s representation in the management of industry; confiscation of 85% of war profits (Profits made by industry during WWI), confiscation of ecclesiastical property/land from the rich and a progressive tax on capital.

    While it may be true that some socialists tried to find a "third way", to describe fascism as beggining from left wing ideology would be entirely wrong. It actually grew from opposition to communism and gained massive support from capitalists, the church and land owners.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Get over yourself

    :lol:

    Well I was taking the piss out of myself, but there ya go.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    While it may be true that some socialists tried to find a "third way", to describe fascism as beggining from left wing ideology would be entirely wrong. It actually grew from opposition to communism and gained massive support from capitalists, the church and land owners.

    Fascism did begin from a left wing ideology. And unsurprisingly for somebody who was for a large section of his life a diehard Socialist Mussolini himself never totally abandoned his left wing values; he despised the bourgeois way of live above all else and according to one of his biographers – Nicholas Farrell ‘remained at heart a Socialist to his dying day.’

    While I think Farrell goes too far, that fascism began from a left wing ideology is pretty undeniable. It’s understandable that as a Socialist you’re keen to distance the disgraced ideology of Fascism from the discredited ideology that you support.

    While fascism did gain support from capitalists, the Church and landowners and that is why it grew – it began as a very left wing movement as the 1919 fascist programme shows. Mussolini then abandoned much of that in order to win support from those groups but that doesn’t change the fact that initially fascism was for all intents and purposes a Socialist party.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is true that Mussolini originally described himself as a socialist, but to say that "fascism began as a left wing ideology" is to entirely miss the point. The truth is actually a lot more complex than that. Fascism may have begun as a movement for social change, and may have drawn some initial ideas from people who described themselves as socialist, to say that it began as a left wing ideology is just plain wrong - by the time fascist ideas were being formulated, they entirely rejected Marxism and class struggle.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whilst its true that socialism equals left wing, left wing doesn't neccessarily equal socialism. The labour party is a moderate left wing party - but they are not socialist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Labour Party is not left wing - they are centre right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    And like FTP you're missing the point - the BNP are not socialist, but it could certainly be argued that some of their policies are left wing

    The point I was disputing was that the BNP could be considered a left wing party.

    That they attempt to pursue populist policies here and there in irrelevant.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Quite. Fascists have a history of appearing populist on the surface.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    The Labour Party is not left wing - they are centre right.

    Only in comparison to the extreme left.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Only in comparison to the extreme left.

    So what exactly do you think left wing means then? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you'd bothered to read my earlier posts you might have a better idea that I don't think its a class based analysis of economics (though it can be).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    If you'd bothered to read my earlier posts you might have a better idea that I don't think its a class based analysis of economics (though it can be).

    I'd like you to point out how New Labour are left wing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK if we assume that on economics there is a sliding scale with extreme (or far) left believing in no private ownership and with extreme/far (though not fascist) right believing that everything should be left to the market.

    Labour are ceratinly not on the extreme left, but they do believe in public control of certain utilities - whether that is direct ownership such as the NHS or by fully publically owned companies such as the railways. They support such things as minimum wage, maternity and paternity leave and strong regulatory control on areas such as health and safety and environment. These are not right wing policies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, thats why New Labour are in the process of privatising the NHS by the backdoor (PFI), privatising the tube in London by the backdoor (PPP), looking at privatising the prisons and the benefits service and deregulating industry.
    While minimum wage has benefitted some people, it has also had the effect of actually driving wages down in a lot of industries. They did not introduce minimum wage because its a good socialist thing to do. They intoroduced it and set it at such a low value because actually it can have the effect of benefitting business and capital. All these are the actions of a centre right government who are actually just carrying on the neo-liberalist project started by Thatcher and Reagan.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ok while the ssubject has move don a bit, I'll just answer the questions that were put to me before:

    How do I know they are left wing? Who told me they were?

    Well I know as I spent 3 years learning politics ar university, who told me? a widely accliamed expert on politics thats who.

    The BNP are actually a communitarian party, and communitrainism is left wing.

    Also I agree with whoever said it, racism or even being not very nice does not equal facism.

    Facism is a very specific ideology and it shows the ignorance of many people who labell any person or government they don't like as facist, when they clearly are not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes, thats why New Labour are in the process of privatising the NHS by the backdoor (PFI), privatising the tube in London by the backdoor (PPP), looking at privatising the prisons and the benefits service and deregulating industry.

    Except they're not are they? People have been claiming NHS is about to be privatised since 1952. The PFI isn't privatisation, but about using private funds in the public sector. I'm not a 100% supporter of PFI, but it is not privatisation
    While minimum wage has benefitted some people, it has also had the effect of actually driving wages down in a lot of industries. They did not introduce minimum wage because its a good socialist thing to do. They intoroduced it and set it at such a low value because actually it can have the effect of benefitting business and capital. All these are the actions of a centre right government who are actually just carrying on the neo-liberalist project started by Thatcher and Reagan

    I never said they introduced minimum wage because it socialist. Socialism and left-wing are two seperate things - socialists are left-wing economics, but you can be left wing and not a socialist. You seem to be off the beleif that you can only be left wing if you follow an ideologically pure vision at the extreme. I disagree and think left wing is a line from moderates, who believe in a mixed economy to the absolute socialists who do not support any private ownership of anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    Except they're not are they? People have been claiming NHS is about to be privatised since 1952. The PFI isn't privatisation, but about using private funds in the public sector. I'm not a 100% supporter of PFI, but it is not privatisation

    Except that they are. Thats what PFI is, its privatisation by the back door. There is talk about privatising prisons and the benefits service too.
    NQA wrote:
    I never said they introduced minimum wage because it socialist. Socialism and left-wing are two seperate things - socialists are left-wing economics, but you can be left wing and not a socialist. You seem to be off the beleif that you can only be left wing if you follow an ideologically pure vision at the extreme. I disagree and think left wing is a line from moderates, who believe in a mixed economy to the absolute socialists who do not support any private ownership of anything.

    Way to miss the point and concentrate on being picky about semantics. OK, hows this - New Labour didn't introduce the miminum wage 'cos of left wing ideals but because it actually serves the needs of capital. Its the same with immigration - it actually benefits the needs of capital to have a pool of labour that will work hard for long hours and little pay and it drives down wages for other people. It also has the secondary benefit of dividing workers against each other.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Totalitarian government
    left wing/right wing/right wing/left wing
    no government

    The more you want government to intervene, the more left wing you are. Labour are certainly left wing. If you grab a politics textbook written in the last few years the whole "no government" bit is usually not even mentioned in the vocabulary.

    I am surprised tha Blagsta can't see that inherent in the phrases "left wing/right wing" is the idea of government. It's a measure of the current government position. Usually pro-civil liberties while making sure no one has any money to spend to exercise them, or anti-civil liberties while making sure you have more money to do that nothing with.

    These days it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government is going to get in. One whose policies have been picked by the individuals who control belief in the corporations to maintain those beliefs. This is how democracy works - offer you one of two choices, neither of which benefits you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You really haven't a clue klintock so don't pretend you have.
Sign In or Register to comment.