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Sharon Resigns

Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's OrganistPosts: 13,327
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4456242.stm

Hmm, what do you all make of this? A good thing, or a bad thing?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really find it extraordinary that in some circles Sharon is being seen as a "moderate".

    If Ariel Sharon is a moderate, what is the other lot like???

    Anyway, it could be a good thing. Most of the poeple in Likud are utter cunts (and to a degree yes, far more zionist fundamentlists than the Butcher of Tel Aviv himself) and if the right wing vote is split it will give Labour a better chance of government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think Sharon has had some sort of "experience" or "change" in his life. Resigning from his party leadership to form his own party so he can follow the "road map of peace" because he believes in it. It is so unexpected i think. Then again with the Palestinians now electing leaders that are not Terrorists, like the late chairman was, maybe Sharon sees this as a real chance for peace. I dont know, its all maybe...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dont be naive subject. Sharon has never intended to follow any "roadmap" save whatever he himself unilaterally concocts as a smokescreen for carrying on the historic Zionist agenda of "Greater Israel" with as few concessions as possible.

    He and his ilk can change Party labels all they wish, but they cannot and will not change their spots. Such is the true nature of hardcore ideologues.

    As for Arafat, he was no more a terrorist than his counterparts in Israel. He just lacked the big money PR spin from which Israeli leaders have long benefitted.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No Arafat was asmuch a terrorist as you can get. He just stopped unilatierally bombing places as he got older and realised his support was diminishing from his lack of willingness to negotiate with moderate Israelis and the fact his parties actions were pushing more fundamentalists like Sharon into powerful positions. Hezbolah took up the mantle as the PLO turned to politics over terrorism.

    As for for Sharon again, maybe he hasnt changed one bit at all. But then again, maybe he has, he did forcibly remove Israelis from Palestian land recently didnt he?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No Arafat was asmuch a terrorist as you can get.

    I think clan's point was that they are both terrorists. They both use violence to get their own way. Just like Tony Blair and all other governments do.
    But then again, maybe he has, he did forcibly remove Israelis from Palestian land recently didnt he?

    See?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The modern state of Israel was founded upon terrorism and ethnocide. Your regurgitation of truncated Zionist revisionist history, subject, does no credit to your understanding of the conflict and its origins. Neither does your wholly Israeli-centric villification of Arafat as the cause of failure for successive attempts at negotiated settlement.

    The reality is that no Israeli leader from the inception of the modern state to the present has ever intended to act in the interests of true social justice, but rather have consistently sought to present conditions they knew would be untenable and unacceptable to Palestinians. In this way they could and have subsequently spun the entire blame onto Arafat and the palestinian leadership.

    Zionists and Zionist ideology hold the indigenous people of that land as lesser persons (and have gone so far as to equate them to dogs in decades past) as a central principle. No genuine intent to negotiate or seek any lasting peace is possible whilst such mindsets hold the reins of power.

    But then, you are merely the latest person to resurrect this issue which has been discussed repeatedly here with numerous substantive links provided to expose the true history of terrorism and ethnocide perpetrated over the past 100 years upon Palestinians in the name of Zionist colonialism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But then again, maybe he has, he did forcibly remove Israelis from Palestian land recently didnt he?

    A token gesture intended to make a PR show of political goodwill which masks the larger unnegotiable expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank. Look beyond the spin to the bigger picture.

    The only true hope for peace would be:

    1. The disavowal of Zionism and removal of Zionist leaders from the helm of state
    2. The full acknowledgement of Israel of its historic atrocities toward the original and indigenous inhabitants of the land
    3. The end of the notion of a purely Jewish state, which flies in the face of all legitimate notions of pluralistic democracy, and the accordance of equal rights for all peoples to live side by side where they will in a single shared state.

    Until then, be prepared to watch this conflict rage on in its roller coaster fashion throughout your lifetime, just as it has throughout the lifetimes of we older folk and long before that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So nothing at all is ever the Palestinians fault then?

    Everything is to be blamed on the Zionists and Jews because they are always wrong and evil and anything they do that is right is only a PR gesture and nothing to do with actually helping the situation now the real threat to peace (Arafat) is dead?

    I concede, i am no longer th emost cynical person around anymore!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Arafat didnt invade the land with militant intent and purge almost 800,000 of the original inhabitants from the land through terroristic and ethnocidal clearnaces, rapes and slayings to begin this whole affair.

    Perhaps we should drive you out of your home and when you assume your right to fight back, label you and your progeny terrorists and force you into generations long poverty and disenfranchisement.

    Clearly you've bought wholesale into the revisionist history and no amount of effort will awaken you to the historical and moral facts of the matter.

    Zionism is as evil as Apartheid and hails from the same 19th century colonialist perspective of group superiority and exceptionalism. Perhaps one day, you might actually realise this, but it seems unlikely.

    Do be careful not to equate Zionists with the broader term "Jews" as a considerable body of Judaism opposes Zionism and many Zionists are not even Jews, but rather fundamentalist Christians.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Put a link that leads to some site that gives a clear and unbiased and fair historically accurate account of events from the moment the British Empire withdrew from Palestine and the State of Israel was formed and i will be happy to look it over. I do want to see how my, "bought wholesale into revisionist history" views are wrong and see a different perspective.

    Surely after half a century of time, the legality of Israelis claiming land is secured. They have won convincingly several wars, started by foreign powers attacking them, to secure their claim. If we are going to argue that who was their first has rightful claim, then we the British have a right to claim it as we were conquered that region. Then the again the Jews controlled it before that, no forgetting that the Romans held it too so Italy can make a rightful claim. Any inhabitants of the region that predate the Arabic and Israeli civilisations are technically the only people who can rightful claim the land on that argument as they were their first, but they were exterminated by both the Jews and Arabs thousands of years ago.

    The who situation is cyclical and undoubtedly the only winner of this will be which ever group live the longest.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    *sigh*

    This is Cland's specialist subject, and I must say, he's right on this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All i want is a link to a page with an historical account so i can read it and see for myself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The BBC is as impartial as it gets (and don't let anyone tell you different) and has lots of pages on the conflict. It doesn't get very deep into it but you'll get some good background info. You could start with this one for an overview of the situation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/default.stm
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Should have watched the BBC series on it! was on not long ago.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    *sigh*

    This is Cland's specialist subject, and I must say, he's right on this.

    No he’s not.

    Any decent historian would instantly dismiss most of Clandestine’s arguments and the methods of those that he uses to support his arguments.

    Clandestine has consistently shown limited (if any) credibility on this subject. He quotes homemade amateur websites with ‘thesis’ by authors hiding behind the anonymity of the internet and invents conspiracies that whilst fascinating are too ridiculous to even warrant serious discussion.

    While pro-Israel I have no interest in supporting my view with propagandistic and extreme Zionist narrative. I’m surprised that someone who considers themselves pro-Palestinian such as yourself is prepared to do the same by supporting the unscholarly ramblings of somebody like Clandestine.

    Such is the nature of this subject in fact anybody seeking the ‘truth’ should ignore most, if not all political historical viewpoints – by this I mean any 'history' the Zionist Federation, Betar, the Boycott Israel brigade, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, etc are pushing.

    Anybody that wants to find out a balanced history of Israel/Palestine should try and read several academic historians representing a range of opinion from both sides. I'd suggest as a few;

    Benny Morris – Righteous Victims (Israeli historian who got his doctorate from Cambridge. As a historian extremely fair and balanced, in his personal views he was on the left although is probably more centre-right now. Generally criticised pretty strongly by both Zionists and Palestinians.) One of Israel’s New Historians (revisionist).

    Avi Shlaim – The Iron Wall (Oxford prof. Like Morris a ‘New Historian’, reaches similar conclusions generally to Morris blaming both sides although more critical of Israel).

    Efraim Karsh – Fabricating Israeli History The ‘New Historians + The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948 (Kings College London prof. Very critical of New Historians, favours more traditional Israeli history).

    Then to move away from moderate, more mainstream academic historians Norman Finkelstein, Alan Dershowitz & Nur Masalha take the more extreme views wholly blaming one side over the other.

    Teh_Gerbil – It is interesting how impressionable you are btw. I can’t be bothered to dig up old posts but I think I remember not so long ago on here you took a very balanced view of the Middle East pretty much blaming both sides. Funny how a few posts from Clandestine can persuade you eh? Although lets remember that’s why Clandestine is here! I would think it coincidental if Clandestine posted on just one Politics forum aimed at young people, primarily teenagers. However, that Clandestine – a 40 year old uses this and other politics forums explicitly aimed at young people or 'teens' to quote golivewire.com quite clearly proves he has some kind of agenda. I mean why out of all the political forums on the internet does Clandestine just happen to choose those aimed at teenagers? Is it to attempt to influence impressionable curious young people with his extreme political and historical opinions? Few other explanations appear more likely.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    By no means is one side innocent - but Israel has consitently shown no commitment to peace and it's only care is itself and expansion.

    When has the Israeli leadership ever done anything to help the situation? They constantly break peace deal regulations, causing furthur choas. Israel by no means "deserves" attacks on civilians - but they do it themselves. Reap as ye sow. I can see nothing in Sharon and his fellows but Zionist intentions. If Israel pulled put of the occupied Terroritory entirley, I would be happy. I would be against any attacks on it then, if it were to stay within it's own borderes. It would be quite entitled to build a wall along it's own borders. But NOT in other peoples land. Ever.

    It is about time Israeli's voted for a new leading party. Cland is mad on other subjects, but I feel he is right on this one. Israeli leadership has no intent of peace, or anything. They refuse point blank, and then agree to peace deals only to break them by bombing some civilians, or slaughtering an entire town.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    By no means is one side innocent - but Israel has consitently shown no commitment to peace and it's only care is itself and expansion.

    Withdrawal from Gaza? Doesn't really equate to expansion does it? Israel has shown no commitment to peace? 1967, Israel offers withdrawal from Sinai & Golan Heights in return for peace? (Israel's offer rejected) 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty? 1994 peace treaty with Jordan? It's really boring discussing this with you as you make blanket statements that well aren't really true and consistently show that you've never read any history of this subject.

    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    It is about time Israeli's voted for a new leading party. Cland is mad on other subjects, but I feel he is right on this one. Israeli leadership has no intent of peace, or anything.

    Nice that you've got a hunch about Clandestine being right. Misjudgement aside, your support of Clandestine's theories with little credible reading to support it whilst gratifying for his ego doesn't really show much integrity.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    You wonder why Israel's offers are Rejected? Look at them - strongly beneficial to Israel, not others. You fail to notice the majority of peace deals accepted have been broken by Israel initiating action against Palestine. Oops. So it is a one way peace deal then? Palestine is by no means innocent - but it is by far the victim here.

    Withdrawl from Gaza - Maybe Sharon finaly realised he was wrong? Attempting to stop the Terrorism, as his multiple murders have not had any effect?

    I have no respect for hte Israeli administration - they are no-one's freind. They sell US technology to China, they kill civilians, hold Nuclear weapons illegaly, and no action gets taken against them. Why? Oh, the US is freindly with them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    More status quo ramblings from the pro-Israel camp as expect Dis. Your roster of supposed supporters include those who whilst feigning moderacy, resort to conclusions in full keeping with the routine Israeli government revisionist line such as your Benny Morris. He can't even hold a candle to the scholarship and intellectual honesty of Pappe, however much you'd like to believe your zionist revisionist "historians".

    Amateur websites? I think not and any reference to past such threads in which you've made the same spurious allegations will find the quite legitimate and well referenced links (such as the UNISPAL report of the Mandate period showing clearly the fraud of claims of "a land without a people" which has long served as a central revisionist Zionist tenet).

    But of course, dyed in the wool ideologues such as Disilliusioned are incapable and unwilling to confront the actual historic record which even many Jewish groups have the moral and intellectual honesty to do.

    Sorry dis, nice try but you've a lot more study ahead of you until you can come close to the years of research and attentiveness to the ongoing conflict which I have made and continue to make.

    Id suggest those who wish a true reading of the history of the region and the atrocities perpetrated by Zionism and its adherents should read:

    What price Israel? by Alfred M. Lilienthal

    The works of Edward Said

    Palestinians: From Peasants to Revolutionaries by Rosemary Sayigh

    For starters.

    I also present an excellent piece on the smokescreen of the gaza pullout and what hasn't been reported by a wholly disingenuous mass media about the bigger picture at work in the "Sharon" plan...

    http://www.tau.ac.il/~reinhart/political/BEHIND%20THE%20SMOKE%20SCREEN.doc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This sums it up for me.........

    Nice try at painting Gaza as a concession Dis :rolleyes: - now its just the worlds largest prison ....... and the West Bank is being stolen - day by day by day.

    :eek2:
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    This sums it up for me.........

    :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh and please Dis, your paltry attempts to claim some insidious agenda by citing a board I havent posted on in years only accentuates your lame position. Obviously incapable of dealing with the truth of the subject you hide behind classic red herring arguments having nothing whatosever to do with the subject in question.

    There is nothing remotely "extreme" about a faithful and honest expose of the history of a conflict steeped in the sort of dishonest revision you subscribe to. Who best to be informed of that but those who will be the future leaders of the world.

    This forum, particularly, is a home to many more non teens than youd like to suggest so enough with your blather already. Time to grow up and set your own mind to some intellectual and historic honesty for a change.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you can put money on it he's up to no good.
    he's walking out of one stuation so he can go manipulate a worse one ...bet ya.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thank you Aladdin! Going to read it now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Given that none of my posts were directed at you J, perhaps you'd care to dealeal with the subject of discussion or kindly keep your personal opinions to yourself, thanks.

    Cleverness is not the issue, historic honesty is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ill be sure to let you know if I come across any "negative voids" lurking about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ill be sure to let you know if I come across any "negative voids" lurking about.
    hey ...even a positive void is a void ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So basically the Arab Muslims have only been there since thr 8th century and they have not controlled the region alone at any one prolongued period of time since then. So really, there claim to the land as it stands, is no greater or worse then absolutely any other person who wants to the claim the Holy Land, the Kingdom of Heaven if you will.

    What about when the Israeli people have been there over a hundred years and the Palestinians who were "displaced" are all dead, the fight for the region will be between people who were born there and have a right to be there, like most Israelis now.

    To say the Israelis should leave the land now after so many years there as inhabitants and so many been born there, is the same as saying the British government should deport any one who has descended from immigrants in the last generation or two. Anti-Israeli sentiments is just racism in the same way anti-palestinian feelings are racist!

    My conclusion on the situation after reading up on the topic!
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    I don't wnat israel to cease to exist, like Iran does.

    I want them out of the illegally occupiedf territory.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    I don't wnat israel to cease to exist, like Iran does.

    I want them out of the illegally occupiedf territory.

    How does land that you took through rape, murder and demolishing 400 towns and villages become 'legally occupied territory'?

    :confused:
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