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Read
this book about Mao. It will open your eyes.
As far as I know, the USA doesnt engage in mass purges of its own people when they are 'bourgeoise' or have a political opinion differing from that of the government. Plus I dont think the US has massive cremation ovens for slaughtered people.
Do you know somethign we dont?
And that's the only real difference between them. Like I said before the US is worse at foreign policy than anyone else.
So you can compare them then?
Or did you mean that you can only compare then, where it is favourable to the US.
Do you need to see Aladdin's list of nations invaded? That would be unfavourable to the US, yet favourable to Stalin, Hitler and Mao. What about the number of people, in other countries, killed by each of those examples - I don't think that the US would compare well there either.
What about the "secret police" aspect, the state spying on its citizens... how do you think that the US would come out there? How about the number of people held without trial?
Or states with the death penalty for children...
I'm not arguing it one way or the other. What I am doing is asking you to prove your assertions - have you any stats about the number of people killed by the US over the past 50 years? This would include people killed in wars, by regimes they have propped up, by terrorists they have funded, by arms they have sold and people who have starved or not received proper medical attention due to unfair US trade laws.
In the same way you can compare apples and oranges.
The list lacks historical context. OK the US may have invaded North Korea, but only after North Korea invaded South Korea. South Vietnam was an independent state recognised by the United Nations, which recieved US support following a minority supported insurgency, supported by a neighbouring power.
And the numbers killed by the US are lower than generally quoted. I've seen lists of those the US have killed which include the several hundred thousand South Koreans killed by the North Koreans, South Vietnamese killed by North Vietnamese and Afghans killed by the Soviets (and in its most embarrasing form Germans killed during WW2 including those killed by the Soviets and the Brits)
Compared to Stalin and the Nazis??? Very well indeed. I don;t have the exact number at Guantanomo Bay, but I suspect it falls far short of the millions he;d without trial in Auschwitz or in Siberia. And the number who've died in US treatment is also lower.
And how many children have been executed? Or are we using the term children in its emotive context to mean young adults? But again if we are comparing to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, the US comes out far ahead (even Saddam's Iraq - according to some posters a refuge of liberalism had mass graves containing toddlers murdered by the state).
Is the US perfect? Obviously not.
Is it similar to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? Again, obviously not.
people are entitled to think of it as what they want, some people see it represents their government, other see as it their way of life, others see it their way of governance and legal system, others see it as a crock of shit that looks alrite or something
Of course, you could always just see it as coloured fabric, signifying nothing but coloured fabric, but that would mean you weren't insane and in a tiny minority. :wave:
Have you heard of McCarthyism?
Or the hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million) of Indonesians murdered because of their political beliefs to great applause amongst US and Western leaders?
Sanctions, bombings, full-scale military invasions and biological warfare - the standard American answer to anyone who refuses to accept the American economic model...
When a country democratically elects a government, how can you support the US in overturning that decision, as it has done on numerous occasions. How can you support the US manipulating foreign elections to get the "desired result"?
And you think that the Russian and Nazis didn't also have excuses?
BTW In the past, have argued the very point which you are
The "numbers" question was raised by Mat. I would argue that it is the fact that people are killed which is the relevant one.
Again, does it matter about the number of people? Surely that fact that it happens at all, in a nation which described itself as the defender of freedom...
Under-18 as defined by the US Supreme Court.
Until Friday, Texas alone had 28 such cases on Death Row.
You are right, it isn't perfect. It's citizens need to recognise that.
It is also similar to Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany. Not identical, but similar. They should recognise that too.
Well it may have some minor similarities, but there are states which are much closer to Hitler's or Stalin's regimes. The US may shoot itself in the foot by its vocal committment to human rights, whilst not always meeting them. But I'd rather live in the US than in 95% of the rest of the world.
I could happily live in New York, and to a lesser degree in Chicago, Boston or parts of California, but otherwise I would choose every other democracy in the world (and quite a few non-democracies while we're at it) over the rest of the US as a place of residence.
what do you do with the flag when its ready to be retired??!!?!?!?!?!
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC8
section 8, point (k) says:
The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a
fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way,
preferably by burning.
what a bunch of inbred rednecks!
Sorry that I am posting in this thread, I assume it's pretty old by now, but I have been off skiing and I figured I owe Spliffie an explanation.
I hate people burning my flag because it is a symbol of my country. I regard myself as rather patriotic and the flag stands for the values of the country I love. Things like justice, freedom, division of power, equality, etc. I'll grant you that the U.S. certainly has done more then its fair share of damage to the world, but the flag doesn't represent that, it represents the values of the U.S.
If you cared more for the nation itself and the values upon which it was built rather than mere corrupted symbology, you'd side more with those who express the liberty to decry rising tyranny by burning the symbols long corrupted by our elitist establishment to replace true patriotism and civic duty with compliant "nationalism".
:eek: long winded dude :thumb:
The constitution doesn't represent values; it is a written documentation of those values. There (in theory) to hold the leaders of my country to a standard. And as for that second sentence, I don't have much to respond with, but if you can't make a distinction between respect for a symbol of values and mindless flag waving I feel very sorry for you.
Now I'm not sure if you meant that second paragraph to be a personal attack or not. It certainly sounded like it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Did you just not read my second post in this thread? The one where I recognized their right to burn the flag? The flag is not a symbol of nationalism simply because a bunch of pecker-head conservatives started bantering on CSPAN about how much they "love" the U.S. The flag stands as it always has, as a symbol of the values of this country (whether or not our government follows these values is another subject all together).
the flag could easily have been made with blue and pink stripes, and as long as it represented what was in the constitution then all is good
not that the patriot act is anything worth talking about in relation to the provisions you all thought you had in the constitution
it's an affront to the constitution, and a really cheese acronym :rolleyes:
Secondly the only thing which the flag actually represents is the 50 states and the 13 original colonies, not "the Constitution". To suggest that a body of precepts as specific and demanding as those enshrined in the Constitution, and indeed far more so in the Bill of Rights, is "represented" by a mere flag is to demean the weight of those founding documents. Worse, the suggestion ignores the flagrant disregard of those principles by successive administrations both domestically and internationally since the days of Lincoln.
No flag will ever serve in place of the obligations charged to our citizenry to maintain vigilance against elitist aspirations or power, which would seek to pervert those principles and ultimately dispense with them altogether - as any right thinking individual can clearly see to the be case at a more rapid pace today than ever before.
You say you pity me. Well sir, I pity you if you are too cognitively dissonant to appreciate that those who equate mindless flag waving with respect for the values of our nation have in fact hijacked the governance of our nation, its institutions and the direction of its domestic and foreign policies.
It is "we the people" alone who are the real symbol either of continuing respect or increasing contempt for our founding values, which we demonstrate purely by our actions or inaction towards any who would reduce those values to hollow soundbites in order to advance their self-serving agenda at home and abroad in "our" name.
This fact is certainly not lost on the many nations and peoples we have bombed, brutalised, subverted and co-opted repeatedly throughout the past century to this very day whilst our public bleets its servile compliance with that treasonous status quo. To them and theirs, our nation's flag has for generations been all too clearly a symbol of repression and economic/political subjugation.
Holy shit! It isn't my country? I don't live here? Ah fuck man, it's a good thing I've got you here, and to think that I have spent so many years wrongly thinking that I was a U.S. citizen. :eek: Oh course it's all our country, you know exactly what I meant and nitpicking on wording only makes you seem long winded. Knock it off man.
You obviously have a very serious problem with symbols. I agree with you, lets ban all symbols because they don't explain in enough depth the meaning of what they symbolize. So from now on we wont have a picture of the little man on the bathroom door, from now on let it be the words "the location where persons of the male persuasion might move their bowels and relieve their swollen bladders". That's much more descriptive than that worthless little outline of a man. :rolleyes: I mean honestly what is so hard to grasp about the idea that a flag can represent the principles of a country (or organization), because I'm pretty sure that's what they are meant to do.
I think it's cute how you obviously haven't read my posts before reply them. You might want to read the part of my post where I made it plain that there is a distinction between "mindless flag waving" and having respect for symbols of your country. I am not one of those guys who hangs a flag up, talks about how much he loves his country, watches Fox News, and refuses to question the administration. Being patriotic doesn't mean that your unable to question, dissent or criticize.
Oh for gods sake, it's like talking to a wall. Don't start in with all that "we the people" nonsense. The flag is meant to be a symbol of the people. It isn't a replacement and I am not trying to argue that it is.
When you talk about flag burning, are you talking about in foreign countries? Because that is a very different situation.
I don't think many people even realiezed it was an acronym.