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Cold War grandmother KGB spy dies

the times this morning says she might well be the longest serving soviet spy in british history

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4628939.stm

The Cold War spy Melita Norwood, whose secret life was unmasked six years ago when she was 87, has died.

Mrs Norwood, from Bexleyheath, south London, worked for the KGB for 40 years and was believed to be the Soviet's longest serving spy in the UK.

In the 1940s she was a secretary with the Non Ferrous Metals Research Association and passed on vital secrets of Britain's nuclear weapons programme.

The story caused a sensation but the great grandmother was not prosecuted.

The then Home Secretary Jack Straw ruled that it would not be in the public interest to prosecute her.

He later told MPs that lessons had been learned from the case.

A lifelong communist, Mrs Norwood said in 1999 she had wanted to help Russia's "new system".

Mrs Norwood said her late husband Hilary was opposed to her actions.

Her secret role was revealed by a KGB archivist, Vasili Mitrokhin, who defected to the West in 1992.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll not mourn for her...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Me neither. She should have been charged six years ago.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rest in peace....
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    And I suppose you would, however, mourn for a British spy? I bring you back to the topic of the U2 where I said good shot. And I didn't even mean it was good an American died...

    RIP, girl. You did a fucknig ace job not being discovered for that long! And, one up for women eh? :lol:

    Don't tell the Femenists... eep.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A spy I might honour perhaps. A traitor never , however.

    And one who gave secrets to one of the most evil regimes in the world. She gave secrets to Stalin at a time when it was well known that his regime was busily murdering all who was opposed to them.

    She may have been effective, but it doesn't stop the fact she was in a position of trust and she betrayed her country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    you have any loyalty whatsoever to your country gerbil?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A spy I might honour perhaps. A traitor never , however.

    All spies have to be traitors, it's kindof the job description. Unless they get name badges these days or something. "Hi, I'm a spy, trust me." won't cut it even with our security services. ;)
    She may have been effective, but it doesn't stop the fact she was in a position of trust and she betrayed her country.

    Could you tell me exactly how she was a member of "the country"?

    What is it? No one can even tell me.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Tommo100 wrote:
    you have any loyalty whatsoever to your country gerbil?

    I was just pointing out that, many people moaned when I said "good shot" when a U2 was shot down. I wasn't even condoning the death. Personally, I do not approve of her actions in any way. But can we not even look back on the past, and realise she must have been bloody good not to get caught for so long?

    Especially YOU Tommo. Need I quote you from that topic?

    I would have had her shot for spying had it been known at the time, but by the time it was found out... too late really.

    Betraying Trust? We had people doing EXACTALLY the same in the USSR. The is no honour in it for either side.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Especially YOU Tommo

    ohhhhhhhhhhhhh ;)

    Fairynuff I just wanted the answer to my question, I agree with you on some points as well, I would still have her shot though. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All spies have to be traitors, it's kindof the job description. Unless they get name badges these days or something. "Hi, I'm a spy, trust me." won't cut it even with our security services.

    To use a fictional example, James Bond is a spy and not a traitor.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What happens when a person genuinely believes the State they live in is the one in the wrong (or even "evil", seeing as the adjective has already been used on this thread)?

    Should we treat people from other countries- the URSS for instance- who betrayed their own country and sold secrets to Britain as traitors and scum? Or should they deserve praise for risking their lives for their beliefs and standing up against their Establishment?

    I'm not stating this woman did it for those reasons (though she claimed she did), I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

    Incidentally, there is an argument that this woman's actions helped to restore the balance of power between the superpowers. At the time the US was well ahead of the Soviets in nuclear weapon technology, and was already developing advanced thermonuclear weapons. Had any superpower reached a position of clear superiority over the other one, chances are we would have seen World War III.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin's right.

    The hypocrisy of people who'll condemn spies and traitors to this country with one breath and then praise defectors, spies and double agents from the USSR with the next is astounding.

    Either you disapprove of betraying one's own country or you do not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    What happens when a person genuinely believes the State they live in is the one in the wrong (or even "evil", seeing as the adjective has already been used on this thread)?

    Makes no difference, they are still a traitor in the sense of the word.
    Should we treat people from other countries- the URSS for instance- who betrayed their own country and sold secrets to Britain as traitors

    Yes, and I think you'll find that all sides did. Even when Philby etc defected the Russians didn't completely trust them, and neither did we with any of the people who defected our way.
    Incidentally, there is an argument that this woman's actions helped to restore the balance of power between the superpowers.

    There is also the argument that she cost people their lives, yet remained free until she died. Surely you don't support that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ibex wrote:
    Either you disapprove of betraying one's own country or you do not.

    I don't approve. They may have been useful (and we should use them), but in my opinion they are still scum...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Makes no difference, they are still a traitor in the sense of the word.
    A traitor to whom? Not discussing any particular case at the moment, but isn't it possible to be a traitor to one's government if fighting it or trying to undermind it, while at the same time being loyal to the people?

    Were Iraqis fighting Saddam Hussein's regime or French people underminding the collaborationist French government during the Nazi occupation 'traitors' to their country?
    There is also the argument that she cost people their lives, yet remained free until she died. Surely you don't support that?
    If she cost people their lives, no I would not support it as a general rule. It'd be for the courts to decide whether lives were directly lost because of her actions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    A traitor to whom? Not discussing any particular case at the moment, but isn't it possible to be a traitor to one's government if fighting it or trying to undermind it, while at the same time being loyal to the people?

    Yes.

    You can only be a traitor to the state, not it's people.
    Were Iraqis fighting Saddam Hussein's regime or French people underminding the collaborationist French government during the Nazi occupation 'traitors' to their country?

    Yes on both counts, they were traitors to their state - remember the state and the country are not the same thing.

    Neither should be trusted completely either. If you are willing to sell out your nation then you are likely to be willing to sell out anything and anyone.

    Reading some of the autobiographies of people involved in this kind of thing, they all say that the final decision to actually spy on their own country was the hardest. Afterwards there was nothing left to lose because that decision alone put everything else at risk. By becoming a spy they had already sold out their family...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    She was a traitor to this country and moreover supported Stalin's State of Terror in which millions of inncoent people died. She obviously was a woman with sound moral judgement. :)
    Let her rot in hell.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    But what if your views happened to be otherwise? You dislike Stalin's reign... she obviously didn't.

    Right and wrong are merley matters of viewpoint in this situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can only be a traitor to the state, not it's people.

    Why? You can certainly betray individuals. That's why we talk about 'betrayals of trust' and the like. So why is it not possible to betray people collectively?

    Moreover, you either approve of treachery or you do not. If not, then you've got to be prepared to put people who sold out regimes like Saddam's Iraq, the USSR or Nazi-occupied France in the same box as Mrs Norwood. Either that, or look a hypocrite.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Well, duh really.

    Anyone woh betrays the state is always the same. A betrayer of the state. Whatever regeime it is.

    Its all opinion. You feel it is better to betray a dictatorship than a democracy. Others do not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can dislike treachery and not regard the French Resistance as traitors without making any leap of logic. In fact you can differentiate between a traitor (ie someone who specifically betrays the trust that they have been placed in) and any member of the any resistance or terrorist group.

    I hate the IRA with a passion, but its hard to claim that they are traitors to the UK.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    I hate the IRA with a passion, but its hard to claim that they are traitors to the UK.
    I thought Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain, so members of the IRA are traitors to Great Britain aren't they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No - you can be in rebellion against something and not be a traitor. To be a traitor you need to betray, ie to be in a position of trust. OK, we could argue over the semantics of what the word means, but I think its clear that there is a difference between a traitor and rebel*


    PS - Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, but is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

    * though some would disagree and I like this little ditty enough to quote it even though it disagrees with me

    'Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
    Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.;
    Sir John Harington (1561-1612)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ibex wrote:
    So why is it not possible to betray people collectively?

    I didn;'t say thatyou cannot betray people, I said that you cannot be a traitor to people, just to a state.
    Moreover, you either approve of treachery or you do not.

    ... and I don't. But sometimes it is in our country's interests that another national turns traitor.
    If not, then you've got to be prepared to put people who sold out regimes like Saddam's Iraq, the USSR or Nazi-occupied France in the same box as Mrs Norwood. Either that, or look a hypocrite.

    Not at all. As I've already said, I wouldn't trust a traitor no matter which side they worked for. Doesn't mean that I cannot recognise the benefits to my country from the actions of others.

    It also means that I recognise that their state may choose to kill them for doing it....
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