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"Bush lied..."

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Teen Spirit
    ok say 9/11 was a hundred thousand, it still does not come anywhere near the amount of innocent people the americans have killed...

    remember, the american government has been toying with world politics for a long time, and even if they havent killed themselves, theyve aided killing, for example, the whole mess with Israel, or giving weapons to the Afghans to fight against the Russians...

    Look at good old Osama, he was behind 9/11, but how could such a man achieve such an act? Could it be his training from the CIA?? Yes it most certainly could. The CIA trained him to be able to put together attacks such as 9/11, but they wanted him to use these skills on the Soviet Union.

    So infact we can blame 9/11 on the Americans, who take the blame for all of the other killings listed before.

    9/11 is just a form of poetic justice... America's killing spree finally hit them, and they dont like it.

    Don't forget that the British and European governments have and continued to be involved in similair acts within world politics, not just the U.S.

    9/11 was no justice, just the murder of innocents.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab
    9/11 was no justice, just the murder of innocents.

    I never said it was justice, but merely stated that it was poetic justice, as in it is ironic that the american government shot themselves in the foot....

    And yes, European countries are just as bad when it comes to such political affairs, they just tend not to invade 3rd world countries so often...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe
    What we have here is the definitive example of the ignoranace of youth, emboldened by the likes of you, regurgitating the pablum spoonfed, by the likes of you... carrying on the legacy of... you.
    Yeah, yeah, I correct the misconceptions of callow youth (because I like to see arguments based on mutually recognised facts), and it's all my fault... Save the fancy shmancies for your book, 'T'. You are writing a book, aren't you, as opposed to just colouring it in?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Teen Spirit
    ok say 9/11 was a hundred thousand, it still does not come anywhere near the amount of innocent people the americans have killed...
    No, I mean that US forces probably won't pick up the tab for killing more than a hundred or so thousand Vietnamese, leaving the effects of AO aside, which has been addressed on another thread (wait, that was a Rage Report thread).

    About three thousand innocents lost their lives on 911 (actually I believe it's dipped beneath that mark now, after initial speculation that more than 6,000 might have died). Not just 'hundreds'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You cant leave the effects of AO aside, not after the amount of lives it claimed. So the US government says they werent aware of the side effects, this is coming from the same organisation that said Iraq has WMDs. hmmmmmmm yeh they really have a great reputation for telling the truth dont they? :rolleyes:

    And their argument for using AO? They needed it to clear out the jungle for thier troups right? well fair enough, and while we're at it why dont we say Osama flew planes into the world trade centre because he wanted attention to his cause rather than being dismissed, another fair and just point.

    The damn government are no better than the terrorists, and seeing that people say its ok to hunt them down and kill them, i think it would be apropriate to issue the same punishment to George Bush and his chums.

    And before you say terrorist attacks are different than valid acts of wars by the americans or whoever else, they are not. If its ok for american bombers to obliterate civilian structures in Iraq or Afghanistan or Palestine (the latter being american bombers with Israeli pilots), then surely the respective countries have the right to do the same? The trouble is that they cannot afford such expensive pieces of machinery, so they must use the next best thing, hijacked planes and explosives strapped onto thier chests. It all results in the loss of human life, except the "terrorists" are made out to be evil bogeymen lurking in every airport and american soldiers are made out to be "heroes and patriots protecting the country"

    They all deserve the same punishment because they are all in the same boat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by USA#1-TrQ
    Agent Orange,

    While I can't argue that the use of Agent Orange was a good decision by the US government, there is debate as to whether or not the side effects were "known" to our government.

    Today, veterans are compensated (I believe) for Agent Orange-related illnesses.

    However, at the time, AO was used for the specific purpose of defoliating the trees in Vietnam so that landing strips could be created for our military personnel, as well to destroy wooded havens that could put our troops at risk during the Vietnam War. An attempt was made to only use it in non-populated areas, however, unfortunately, sometimes it did not happen that way.

    So the goal was not to maliciously hurt people, it was to help our troops win the War. Not a very well-thought out decision, but not a purposeful and knowing attempt to harm people through chemical poisoning (not the Vietnamese nor our own guys).
    However there are solids claims to the contrary- that the US government was aware at the time of the extreme toxicity of the agent.

    From the link I posted earlier on this thread:

    "Teams of international scientists working in Vietnam have now discovered that Agent Orange contains one of the most virulent poisons known to man, a strain of dioxin called TCCD which, 28 years after the fighting ended, remains in the soil, continuing to destroy the lives of those exposed to it. Evidence has also emerged that the US government not only knew that Agent Orange was contaminated, but was fully aware of the killing power of its contaminant dioxin, and yet still continued to use the herbicide in Vietnam for 10 years of the war and in concentrations that exceeded its own guidelines by 25 times. As well as spraying the North Vietnamese, the US doused its own troops stationed in the jungle, rather than lose tactical advantage by having them withdraw. "
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The full roster of purposed lies which were fed to the American public in order to launch and subsequently escalate the Vietnam War were duly and completely revealed in the Pentagon Papers in 1971. Obviously those who continue to attempt to justify any aspect of that war have selectively relegated all memory of those revelations to the dustbin of intellectual dishonesty.

    I suggest before anyone spouts in defense of Washington and the MIC over this war, go exercise your rights under the FIA and sit down for a good long read.

    The very actual conspiracy of lies which was maintained through 5 successive administrations (Truman to Nixon) is a damning indictment of the consistency of fundamental policy interest and propaganda by the Pentagon upon the American public.

    A taste of what the Papers reveal
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Pentegon Papers

    While I've not read the Pentagon Papers, I do own them. Also, the one who had those paper compiled, Robert McNamara, Former Defense Secretary, wrote a book called "In Retrospect," which outlined his own decision making process and what he considered to be the "mistakes" that he made as well as the mistakes made by the Johnson Administration, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Secretary of State.

    In that book, he outlines and mentions more peripherally, what is contained in the Pentegon Papers.

    The Vietnam War was riddled with mistakes made by Politicians. Yet it did NOT seem to be purposeful treachery as much as mismanagement of the war. No evil intent, but more than anything, short-sigthedness. :rolleyes:

    Trying to keep the War limited in scope, to prevent it from going over the border to Cambodia and Laos, thus giving the enemy (VC and NVA) a haven to regroup, etc.

    Intelligence in the field was collecting unreliable data, etc.

    NOT maliciousness with evil intent to subjugate the Vietnamese, but an attempt to prevent Communism from spreading, and in that process, they made some gross miscalucations.

    Again, NOT evil intent, but definitely mismanagement of the War. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Taking McNamara, who was very much purposefully behind many of the lies, at his word is your perogative. I suggest going to the source and weighing through it as have countless researchers (myself having read a fair portion though not all 47 volumes) have done would open your eyes to what were far more than "mistakes" as you've politely downplayed them to be.

    Sorry Traq, but on this score, until youve bothered to confront the source document you really can't dismiss it so offhandedly as anything other than what it is, a concerted conspiracy of lies blown wide open thanks to the patriotism of Daniel Ellsberg.

    What is most frightening is that the practice of purposed deceit and public information manipulation it outlines has remained constant in contrived US led conflicts to the present day.
    to prevent it from going over the border to Cambodia and Laos

    I suggest you review your history of Kissinger's massive war crime in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of Laotians and Cambodians in high flight carpet bombing sorties.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by lukesh
    If I lived in America, I would be voting Bush in the November Elections.

    All this attention on Bush as resulted to so much Anti Bush on these boards. Lets look at Chirac now eh? I bet there is loads we can expose about him and France over Iraq.


    It's just a pity that if you did vote Bush, some creature comforts you'd miss are:
    Free healthcare
    Cheap healthcare
    Pension
    Unbiased education
    The right to a fair trial (overturned by the Patriot act)
    The right to privacy (overturned by the Patriot act)
    The right to live in a relatively unpolluted country
    A church that is seperate to state
    Corporations that aren't above the law
    A government that can't be bought by a corporation


    Did you know that Bush's solution to their ever-nearing recession was:
    Tax cuts worth billions of dollars, but only to the rich and to the corporations.
    Decrease money spent on public services whilst increasing money spent on the military, but not on soldiers.
    They are currently developing 3 fighter jets, made by 3 different companies. The joint strike fighter they are making with us is the most superior, but instead of scrapping the other 2 he pours more money in!
    US military spending was $362 billion last year. More than the COMBINED budgets of the top 25 countries.
    And they can't even pacify guerillas. tut tut.

    Yes, I'd just love to live in America.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Clandestine

    Actually, I agree with you about the importance of the Pentegon Papers.

    But what I am not getting a clear picture of, is exactly what you are critisizing regarding the Vietnam War.

    In particular, I am not clear about what you think the US's goal for engaging in that war was? It seems from your above post that you think we were simply in there to subjugate the Vietnamese. And you think the US government was bent on lying to its own people. But the question in my mind, is what do you think the purpose of the "conspiracy" of lies was? Did you think there was a hidden agenda or goal on the part of the USA regarding Vietnam?

    :confused:

    BTW:
    It is probably best to read a wide variety of sources regarding the Vietnam War. Kissinger and Ellsberg were clearly biased. There are many, many more perspectives out there. While I do think it is critical to examine the naysayer's perspectives, it is just as critical to examine the perspectives of people who were in support of the war, and those who are more distanced from it, and not as personally involved. Both McNamara and Kissinger had personal roles in it...of course.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Clandestine
    Originally posted by USA#1-TrQ


    In particular, I am not clear about what you think the US's goal for engaging in that war was? It seems from your above post that you think we were simply in there to subjugate the Vietnamese. And you think the US government was bent on lying to its own people. But the question in my mind, is what do you think the purpose of the "conspiracy" of lies was? Did you think there was a hidden agenda or goal on the part of the USA regarding Vietnam?.

    It is simply another example of the rhetoric of the HATE AMERICA FIRST CLUB. Does not matter the substance, just the opportunity to vent the bile...

    Just as MORE WMD are discovered in Iraq - you know, those weapons that were previously used by Hussein, but all of the far left wacko's deny the existence of - and ALL are "bored to tears" and want not to hear of...

    http://www.wbj.pl/?command=article&id=23073&

    If you avoid reality long enough? You might convince yourself of the "evil of America"...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just keep latching on any tidbit you can find to confirm your denial of reality Globe, hardly surprising. Of course, in your typical intellectually dishonest fashion you fail to note the caveat at the bottom of the article indicating that analysis of it virulence has yet to be determined.

    And do tell us how Saddam was going to devastate US home soil with sarin gas filled mortar shells. LOL.

    You are a truly paranoid right wing delusional living in a self made world of hate, bigotry and hypocrisy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL. Poor Thanatos uses the word reality again.

    You really couldn't make it up. :D

    Hey Thanatos, you still haven't given us your thoughts about the 500,000 people killed by Agent Orange alone...

    When you're ready...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Just keep latching on any tidbit you can find to confirm your denial of reality ...
    You are a truly paranoid right wing delusional living in a self made world of hate, bigotry and hypocrisy.

    And you? Deny the existance of WMD in Iraq, as they are produced?

    Your hatred of America fuels your OWN bigotry.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine

    I suggest you review your history of Kissinger's massive war crime in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of Laotians and Cambodians in high flight carpet bombing sorties.

    It is obvious that to you, to fight AGAINST the enemies of the free world, is in itself a "war crime"...

    Better the world that Pol Pot visited upon SEAsia, right...? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excellent! I must obviously be on Thanatos' ignore list.

    I'm honoured. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    maybe he's not Thanatos
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin and Clandestine,

    What exactly are both of your points regarding the Vietnam War (Clandestine) and Agent Orange (Aladdin)?

    What is both of your understandings about "WHY" the United States went into Vietnam? :confused:

    I'm basically not seeing what you are both getting at here. Do you think we went in there simply to bomb some foreigners for fun and games or something? Or maybe to cause a few birth defects with Agent Orange for future laughs. :confused:

    Exactly what "conspiracy" do you think the US gov't was perpetrating back at that time? Even conspiracies typically have a goal, right? So what are you trying to say? :eek2:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Globe,

    You know my thoughts on the issue of WMD....even if they were there...as well as my thoughts on the Bush administration....

    Right now, I'm just trying to understand the arguments that others are trying to make by using Vietnam as an example. Just trying to get people to clarify their positions, in order to respond.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    Hey Thanatos, you still haven't given us your thoughts about the 500,000 people killed by Agent Orange alone...

    When you're ready...

    Just as soon as you post your thoughts concerning the travesty visited upon the world in the form of thalidomide, courtesy of you high minded Brit-o-philes.

    Evil knows no boundaries, does it?

    Or...

    One might objectively observe...

    When using chemicals, shit happens. Was it planned? No... it was a collateral effect, NOT the INTENDED effect.

    Hindsight is 20/20, for assholes. Does your shoe fit? :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe
    Just as soon as you post your thoughts concerning the travesty visited upon the world in the form of thalidomide, courtesy of you high minded Brit-o-philes.
    Do you know which country Thalidomide was originally synthesised in, Thanny, by the Chemie Grunenthal company?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is Thanatos thing? Is Globe the old Thanatos?! Or is it like the Lukesh - BNP comparison?

    You are in Spain for two weeks and mixin goes, Luke comes back, we get a new yanker and Thanatos is called Globe... Is baldog a moderator now?

    Edited to say:

    I want a Ronald Reagan Taliking Action Figure!

    If you press his right hand he says things like:

    "Hey Augusto! How are the choppers working buddy?"

    And many more...

    Edited to say:

    What?!

    Don't Lady Jade and Susie moderate P&D anymore? What is hapening?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh Thanny, care to comment on the final results of what you so gleefully latched onto as proof of the ominous WMD threat?

    OOPS!...again
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Poor Thanatos... just when he thought it was safe to go back into thesite and another rumbling beckons :D

    By the way, the US government knew of the likely effects of Agent Orange but went ahead with it anyway.

    Then again that shouldn't be much of a surprise. When has the US government given a flying fuck about civilian deaths anyway?

    I mean, they're fully aware of the horrifying effects of depleted uranium ammunition and the appalling civilian deaths caused by their evil cluster bombs, but that doesn't stop the fucking cunts from using them does it?

    Though in fairness the British are not much better regarding such weapons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Teen Spirit
    I never said it was justice, but merely stated that it was poetic justice, as in it is ironic that the american government shot themselves in the foot....

    And yes, European countries are just as bad when it comes to such political affairs, they just tend not to invade 3rd world countries so often...

    Oh wow, what a major difference, forgive me :rolleyes:
    I wonder how you would describe it if a member of your family was killed by the IRA.

    As for your second statement :lol:

    What a classic, suggest you read up on the British Empire my friend if history is too much try a google search on Iraq.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On the subject of Bush, while I don't think it's worth creating a new thread for, I found this wry little site very amusing, particularly the 'second attempt' link at the bottom...

    Prove Bush is *not* stupid

    :)
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