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A little test for the hardline eurosceptics

Whereas I'm sure some people in the Continent don't want the Constitution and even would like their countries to withdraw from the EU, I think it is safe to say that such people can be found in this country in much more abundance than in the rest of Europe. So must the "Losing our independence" and "1,000 years of sovereignty down the drain!" cries be heard over much more often and profusely here than in the Continent.

So here's a little test. This is not for anyone who has reasonable reservations about the Constitution or the EU, but for those who actually believe Britain will "cease to be an independent nation" and that "we'll lose our sovereignty" by signing up to the Constitution:

Considering that such concerns are rarely heard elsewhere in Europe with such frequency and by so many people, is it that

A) The British are fully aware of the real dangers of the EU and the other 24 EU nations are just a bunch of fools who don't realise their nations are about to cease to exist

B) The other 24 EU nations realise of the real dangers of the EU but actually don't care about losing their independence, heritage and sovereignty

C) The other 24 nations see the EU and the Constitution for what it is, and it is the British (or a sizeable proportion of them) who are deluded and completely paranoid and insist on seeing monsters where there aren't any.


Answers on a postcard please.
Beep boop. I'm a bot.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps you could add a fourth option there that some of the other nations of Europe accutually want to unite, while others benefit extremly well from the economics of the EU?

    The likes of Germany and France have made no secret of their desire for closer integration and the likes of the Republic of Ireland, Portugal & Greece and the new countries joining the EU have and will benefit from transfer of EU funds from the richer nations to the poorer ones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But then that would fall into C would it not? Perhaps the Germans, French et al don't see closer integration as a loss of heritage, independence and sovereignty, as some people here claim.

    Frankly I very much doubt that proud, heritage-rich nations such as France or Italy would be so willing to get into closer integration if they considered it as a loss of their sovereignty and heritage.

    Which would bring us to answer C again...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Euro-scepticism is quite prevalent in many of the new nations from eastern Europe- the president of the Czech Republic, for example, has stated that his country has been bent over a barrel with regards to joining the EU.

    Personally I actually think that Micheal Howard has exactly the right attitude to Europe. The European Union has the power and the potential to do enormous good, but it has to become more flexible, more open and more democratic.

    tThe only problem with alleviating the democratic deficit is, of course, that countries such as Britain do not want executive control to pass from the Commission (which they dominate) to the Parliament (which they do not).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All of this might depend on how it's been sold over the years and through education to the respective populations

    The Germans for example seem scared of their own WW2 shadow and might buy into the 50 years of peace nonsense argument (a coincidence). all of Europe was under occupation (bar Switz) apart from the UK

    UK has a different, Commonwealth outlook, was dragged by Heath into a Common Market and has kicked against a federalising EU

    Maybe not for ever though
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    By no means do all 24 other European nations want full integration. This is a blantant lie, plenty of other countries are disgusted by the EUs attempts to take over their countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the EUs attempts to take over their countries.
    No wonder Blair has said this is going to be a reality vs. myths battle...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    24 other countries, eh, all united in a common purpose? I don't think so

    denmark had to be given a 2nd referendum on Euro as !st had wrong result, ie rejection

    Eire has been picking up Euro-cheques as have the club-Med'ers

    Nu-E. Bloccers will soon be picking up Euro-cheques

    All have their own agenda, UK should decide its own, better out of the shambles
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Trying to stay on topic, this is not about the merits of the euro or alleged handouts the EU gives. This is about the absurd amounts of scaremongering, myths and undiluted bullshit we have to put up with in this country.

    So I'll refer you to my original question ladymuck, and ask you: do you think the answer is A, B or C?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh Oh Oh! I know this! Its C :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So I'll refer you to my original question ladymuck, and ask you: do you think the answer is A, B or C?

    none of the above as the questions are loaded and would fail to meet the standard of any sensible survey

    really:rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Talk about a loaded set of question (ah shit, I'm agreeing with ladymuck :( ) but the basic assumption is that the populations of the other 24 EU nations actually support the institution.

    I'm not convinced that is correct.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On a much higher proportion than Britain, yes I believe all of them do.

    But as I said at the beginning this is not for those who have reasonable reservations about the benefits of the euro/Constitution/EU membership. This is for those who subscribe to the "loss of sovereignty, history and heritage" claims that can be heard with alarming frequency all over the place, including much of the media.

    I've frankly had fucking enough of the "1,000 years of history and sovereignty will be thrown away" and "the death of the nation state Britain" bollocks the filthy racist S*n and the fucking HateMail have been spouting non-stop for far too many years now. Incredibly a fair number of people in this country appear to subscribe to such scaremongering bullshit, far more than in any other nation in the EU.

    I suspect the sadly departed Lukesh would have agreed to such statements so it's a shame he's not here to give me his answer. But probably other posters here also believe we're about to cease to exist as a sovereign nation, as per the S*n's warnings, so I'd be interested to get an A, B or C answer from them (or an alternative answer for that matter).

    Frankly it doesn't matter if all 24, 20 or even 8 countries have a different opinion of the EU when it comes to the concept of "losing your sovereignty". Can anyone seriously think that France, to name but one country at the heart of the EU would for a second consider further integration if it meant they'd "cease to exist as a sovereign nation" and their heritage and history were to be "erased"?

    Britain is not the only country with pride, heritage and history FFS. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Britain is not the only country with pride, heritage and history FFS. :rolleyes:

    But we are one of the few nations not to have been occupied by a foreign state for around 1000 years. That has huge bearing on how we feel and should not be dismissed.

    And there will be some loss of sovereignty, it cannot be any other way if the EU is to have closer political links. Maybe other nations see that as a price worth paying?

    For some in this country that is a fear, self determination has been a way of life for so long. I know it's a cliche, and for some used as a little englader approach, but that is what we fought a war for.

    Perhaps the UK is being a little over cautious, perhaps we are just a little more aware of our independance, perhaps being a island nation makes a difference. I don't know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, welcome back Luke!

    Low turn-outs in the European elections are hardly an indication of people thinking their countries are about to "cease to exist", are they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Others’ stupidity can’t excuse yours.
    As my mom used to say If 99 idiots are hitting their heads on tables this doesn’t mean you must be the 100th.
    PS Hi Luke I’m glad you are back!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: A little test for the hardline eurosceptics
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Whereas I'm sure some people in the Continent don't want the Constitution and even would like their countries to withdraw from the EU, I think it is safe to say that such people can be found in this country in much more abundance than in the rest of Europe. So must the "Losing our independence" and "1,000 years of sovereignty down the drain!" cries be heard over much more often and profusely here than in the Continent.

    So here's a little test. This is not for anyone who has reasonable reservations about the Constitution or the EU, but for those who actually believe Britain will "cease to be an independent nation" and that "we'll lose our sovereignty" by signing up to the Constitution:

    Considering that such concerns are rarely heard elsewhere in Europe with such frequency and by so many people, is it that

    A) The British are fully aware of the real dangers of the EU and the other 24 EU nations are just a bunch of fools who don't realise their nations are about to cease to exist

    B) The other 24 EU nations realise of the real dangers of the EU but actually don't care about losing their independence, heritage and sovereignty

    C) The other 24 nations see the EU and the Constitution for what it is, and it is the British (or a sizeable proportion of them) who are deluded and completely paranoid and insist on seeing monsters where there aren't any.


    Answers on a postcard please.


    D) The EU does not benefit all nations in the same way to the same extent. There are differences of opinion even in Britain as to the benefits and cons of EU membership and further integration. Its also down to how we WANT to be governed, maybe what we see as dangers are not viewed in the same way by other countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    None of those answers are correct, it is far too narrow an outlook.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by lukesh
    Thank you, I'm glad to be abck! I've missed you! :)

    I came back before anyone asks is because I have had a lot of emails etc asking for me to return.

    All I was trying to say about this is that us in the UK feel that it's only us who don't want more Politcal Intergration.

    Not everyone on the continent is in favour of further political integration, I think its a minority of people that are in favour of a European Superstate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Then again the immense majority of people in the Continent don't believe that their countries are about to "cease to exist", further political integration or not. Nor do they believe their nations are going to end up as provinces of a 'country' called Europe.

    Which is what a sizeable proportion of people have been saying in this country.

    Thank heavens we're much more clever here than in the Continent then, where the poor deluded fools are clearly signing away their sovereignty, heritage and history without even knowing it or caring about it. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Then again the immense majority of people in the Continent don't believe that their countries are about to "cease to exist", further political integration or not. Nor do they believe their nations are going to end up as provinces of a 'country' called Europe.

    What do they believe they are signing up to then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A tyding up exercise perhaps?

    EU's myths and realities
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, it is [generally] a tidying up exercise. But you have to ask yourself what it is that they are "tidying up"

    The treaties which are being address here have never been ratified by the UK public. The referendum which too kthe UK into the EEC (as it was then) was sold as a trade agreement - similar to many of the mehtods by which we trade with our commonwealth partners.

    The EU si something different, and like it or not, it does require some changes in sovereignty. As the following quotes from that BBC link highlight.
    It will lead to more qualified majority voting

    What this means is that the UK will no longer have the right to veto proposals in these areas. If the majority of countries support it, we have to as well. Clearly this in contrary to UK citizens deciding their own fate as they will not be able to influence the formation of Govts in the other states.
    The procedures by which laws are passed have not fundamentally changed. Laws will still be proposed by the executive body, the Commission, and agreed jointly by member states and the European parliament. EU law is supreme in those areas where it has the right to legislate, but that has always been the case.

    The first thing is sematics. The word "fundamentally" in the first sentence there is misleading, what it actually means is that there will be changes.

    Getting away from that though is the point about the areas where the EU has the "right" to legislate. Who gave them this right? Who said that the EU can overrule our nationally elected Govt on any area? Was it the public, in a referendum, or was it a standing Govt of the day?

    I think that this is what underlies much of the illfeeling you see in the UK about the EU. It isn't necessarily that people are opposed to the idea in principle, or that they see it as a problem bu twhat they see is that aspects of sovereignty are being given up without reference to them. It is the people who should decide if the EU has the right to make and enforce laws affecting them and as yet I can't see that such a decision has been made.

    There is also the sense of betrayal by our political parties here too. Firstly you have Edward Heath, who blantantly lied to the population about the motives for going into the EEC and what it meant in political terms, when all along he knew that it would bring political unions. But subsequently there has been a gradual erosion of our rights as a nation state and no party has ever stood for election on the basis of handing more powers over, and because it would be a vote loser. So they keep quiet, ignore the subject and let the other issues facing the nation dictate how people will vote...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tThe only problem with alleviating the democratic deficit is, of course, that countries such as Britain do not want executive control to pass from the Commission (which they dominate) to the Parliament (which they do not). [/B]

    kermit - what structure would you like to see in place?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If this is simply a tidying up exercise why does the prime minister risk loosing the next election over it!?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If this is simply a tidying up exercise why does the prime minister risk loosing the next election over it!?

    Yes, Blair may find to his peril UK does not want to be tidied up into a supaState
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think as an island nation we have become very much used to our independance and isolation. On the other hand, continental Europe, Germany in particular, has become used to having its borders redrawn so often that a European superstate wouldn't appear to threaten its way of life.
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