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10% of builders are "illegal immigrants"

Story.

And to this I say: so what? The construction industry needs the workers, the workers pay tax, so what if they didn't dot the i's and cross the t's. If they want to work, and will pay tax, then anyone, regardless of who they are, is welcome in this country. God knows we need them.
From Migration Watch UK
The system simply doesn't knit together. The government don't know who they've got or where from.

And? They're working, they're building our houses and our offices, who really cares? British people aren't doing the work, so why not let everyone else have a go? It's the same with bus drivers- no Britons want to drive buses, so let immigrants, if they're qualified. If they've arsed themselves to come over here, I'm sure all 95% of them want to do is work legally and better themselves and their family. And as that benefits us thorugh taxation and the work done, I'm all for it.
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Comments

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can see your point Kermit, and especially in London there is a drastic need for tradesmen/women I had my bathroom re-done about 6 months ago and plumbers were charging 50-60 pounds an HOUR!

    However, if they are illegal immigrants then can they be trusted to have the skills needed, or more to the point can we be SURE they have the skills. I wouldnt want someone putting in my electric wires if I didnt know they were qualified.

    I would just much rather see an extention of the work permit system for tradesmen, I'm sure there is a shite load of them in Eastern Europe.

    Although having said all this the two blokes who did my bathroom under the boss were from Lithuania and I'm not totaly sure that they were legal, they did a good job though and were quite cheap, so...who am I to argue.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly.

    Anyone disagrees?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why are there shortages in not just building but schools, nursing? Too many students chasing unattainable goals by going to Universities on crap courses?

    What's good for businesses isn't the same as what's good for UK long-term,so I'll keep my champagne bottle corked a bit longer:rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In the main though it is. If business is thriving, we ALL benefit. Trade makes us all richer.

    The reason there arent enough nurses and teachers is because they are grossly over worked and under paid. That has very little to do with 'business' as such.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If they're willing to work, let them. As Kermit said they pay the texes, so where's the problem?

    If British people don't want to work in the Construction Trade, then let people who do. Simple.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    if noone else wants to do it, let em do it...

    thats why i say controlled work permits to let skilled workers of wanted professions in...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have no objection to them being here and working, I would just much rather them have a work permit. That way they are more likely to pay tax and generally be part of the community. And that way they wont have to worry about the police chasing them down, and the police wont have to chase them either.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    I have no objection to them being here and working, I would just much rather them have a work permit. That way they are more likely to pay tax and generally be part of the community. And that way they wont have to worry about the police chasing them down, and the police wont have to chase them either.

    Are work permits only given out under certain circumstances?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have had a few dealings with the immigration service, and it is NOT a happy experience. The lines outside their building down in Croyden are massive, hundreds of people, thousands probably each day and the time it takes to get processed is stupid.

    My wife is American so the paperwork that goes with that is very easy (5 mins when we got seen), but we spent the whole day waiting to be seen, about 8 hours!

    From what I understand from work permits for outside the Eu, you have to prove that no-one in the EU could do the job that you were applying for. AND you have to have the employer asking for you.

    So you can imagine that its not all that easy.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    I have had a few dealings with the immigration service, and it is NOT a happy experience. The lines outside their building down in Croyden are massive, hundreds of people, thousands probably each day and the time it takes to get processed is stupid.

    My wife is American so the paperwork that goes with that is very easy (5 mins when we got seen), but we spent the whole day waiting to be seen, about 8 hours!

    From what I understand from work permits for outside the Eu, you have to prove that no-one in the EU could do the job that you were applying for. AND you have to have the employer asking for you.

    So you can imagine that its not all that easy.


    Ahhhh. How the hell could you prove that no one inside the EU could do the job you want to apply for though? That seems a bit dodgy to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well them was the rules when I looked into them, erm two and a half years ago.

    It might not be that anyone in the EU could do the job, but the employer has to show they made an effort to get someone from the EU first. So they have to do lots of work which obviously they arent going to do for a builder.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by bongbudda
    Well them was the rules when I looked into them, erm two and a half years ago.

    It might not be that anyone in the EU could do the job, but the employer has to show they made an effort to get someone from the EU first. So they have to do lots of work which obviously they arent going to do for a builder.

    Ah right, I get ya.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    Why are there shortages in not just building but schools, nursing? Too many students chasing unattainable goals by going to Universities on crap courses?


    Yes, god help us if too many people get an education. They might just stop listening to reactionary right-wing politicians... ;)

    If you want to look at nursing and teaching then perhaps you should consider that it isn't university courses which are the problem - afterall to be employed in either profession you actually need to have such an education.

    You would do better to look at decades of cuts in budget and political reactionary policies which don't look for long term investment, but rather at short term election winning approaches.

    I'm not a Labour supporter by any means, but at least their plan for the NHS is looking at the period after the next election, rather than just the period up to it...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I read 1/3 of graduates ended up on McJobs, higher ducation expansion another case of the Emperor's New Clothes, something we should all nod of approvingly, bad form to look too closely at , student debt, time-spent and not a pile of use long-term for too many
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    advert in the manchester evening news some years ago ...in the building section ...
    'you've tried the cowboys ...now try the indians'.
    pattel brothers ...property repairs.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    Why are there shortages in not just building but schools, nursing?

    shit pay and conditions? Just a thought, like.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    I read 1/3 of graduates ended up on McJobs, higher ducation expansion another case of the Emperor's New Clothes, something we should all nod of approvingly, bad form to look too closely at , student debt, time-spent and not a pile of use long-term for too many

    Eh, have you been smoking something?

    Because of the debt a lot of undergrads have to do McJobs to make ends meet, which is probably where your statistic comes from.

    The reaosn why we don't have enough teachers and nurses is because the pay is shit, and there is no incentive. I will leave uni with £15,000 of debt, I aren't gonna work that off by being a teacher on £18,000 am I? And that's even before I have to start buying a house, something that I couldn't afford to do on £18,000.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because of the debt a lot of undergrads have to do McJobs to make ends meet, which is probably where your statistic comes from.

    is it?

    probably

    or maybe probably not
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know guys from my native country who work in building industry here in New Zealand. Not all of them were skilled workers at home. Not all of them are good workers here. Some of them were architects or doctors but NZ laws forbid them to work until they got NZ diplomas but they can‘t get it because new immigrants mostly don’t have enough money for re-education. So they work where they manage to find job.
    A case I know well: a man ( about 45 y.o.), a respected specialist in building industry. He has his own small team, he earns good money, he’s bought a nice house recently (a wonderful scenery. The sea, mountains so on. Not bad money, really.) Plus he feeds two families ( his old one and his new one). He was a KGB officer ( I’m not joking. He was. Not a high rank officer of course but anyway). He never worked in building industry. But now he is a great specialist who can say to anybody ’I f**k your job. Your wages barely satisfies Salvation Army. Pay these dollars and make those conditions and you’ll get what you need.’
    I don’t think this kind of immigrant is bad for your country but I’d like to know what do you think about it? Maybe you believe they are the worst kind of immigrant who push British workers’ wages down?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    Why are there shortages in not just building but schools, nursing? Too many students chasing unattainable goals by going to Universities on crap courses?

    I was under the impression that to be a teacher or a nurse it was best to go to university........:rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Maybe you believe they are the worst kind of immigrant who push British workers’ wages down?

    Evidence suggests that immigration only has a negative effect ion the wages of the very low skilled and uneducated. Minimum wage legislation and a good security net howeveer can prevent any severe problems caused by this.

    Stat of the day (from yesterdays Guardian) immigrants have a lower unemployment rate than 'natives'.

    Labrat as a libertartian type do you beleive in completely unrestricted migration?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    guardian higher ed careers article

    It wouldn't inspire me to get into a whole lot of debt but it's getting more obligatory to graduate to be even considered by many employers
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Still most graduates get pofessional jobs and considering that is only within 6 months the loner run picture is probably better........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Despite fears about graduates being forced into "McJobs", the majority of first degree students found professional occupations. The most popular choices were in the sector of property development, business and research activities.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the majority of first degree students found professional occupations.

    That, though covers a multitude of sins like teaching, libraries and sundry other lowly-paid public-sector jobs so it may not be happy ever after for graduates esp after paying off student debts.

    And then those who are unemployed or drop out.

    Why should 50% of school leavers (govt. target) graduate, it makes their degree very commonplace and no real indicator of ability?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why doesn't the government set up a company devoted to giving skilled immigrants jobs and training in the construction trade for a decent wage? They can redevelop run down estates for "natives" and themselves to live in or build small affordable housing communities. Kill two birds with one stone.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    That, though covers a multitude of sins like teaching, libraries and sundry other lowly-paid public-sector jobs so it may not be happy ever after for graduates esp after paying off student debts.

    And then those who are unemployed or drop out.

    Why should 50% of school leavers (govt. target) graduate, it makes their degree very commonplace and no real indicator of ability?

    Well as the source says, the most popular choices are a little better than that. I agree about the 50% target, what we also need to concentrate is the skills shortage esp in construction.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Degree's are not for everyone, or even for 50% of school leavers. I would like to see 50% or more going on to further education, but that doesnt have to mean university and I think all the focus on that is a mistake.

    A lot of people just dont learn in that way, the so called "book smart".

    It is obvious that the more 2.1 and higher degrees there are the less they mean, you cant avoid that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by ladymuck
    That, though covers a multitude of sins like teaching, libraries and sundry other lowly-paid public-sector jobs so it may not be happy ever after for graduates esp after paying off student debts.

    And then those who are unemployed or drop out.

    Why should 50% of school leavers (govt. target) graduate, it makes their degree very commonplace and no real indicator of ability?

    It is true that many graduates have inflated expectations of what they will earn but the fatc is that for the vast majority of people, having a degree improves your earning potential, and will continue to do so even with more graduates. The 50% figure is based on estimates of the way the jobs market is moving, more jobs require more advanced skills available from degrees, it was not picked from the air as some seem to think.

    If the sector is not expanded we risk even worse skill shortages than the one we have already, mot enough doctors, or nurses or teachers, or computer technicians, or researchers etc etc........
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