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British or not????

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just from the News last night regarding the terror raids on people suspected of plotting the kidnap and torture of a British born Muslim soldier!!
    In a poll on the news ONLY 20% of muslims would be happy if a family member was in the British Forces, something like 30% would accept it and the rest would be totally against it!!
    This really gets to me and I'm no racist but why do they want to live in our country and claim our benefits but they are not willing to fight for us??
    How can anyone justify the kidnapping of a fellow muslim just because he is fighting for HIS country?? (I know this is only a minority who would justify this).
    That poll scares me slightly though, you live in our country you should be willing to fight for our country!!
    Discuss or flame me, I'm willing to change my views if someone can convince me I'm in the wrong for thinking like this!!

    A poll is hardly an accurate representation of the truth, isn't it.
    It's obviously sensationalized by the ever irresponsible news media.

    It's not that they are not willing to fight for us, them or whoever, they do not want to be puppets in someone's private army and someone's private agenda. Majority of people in Britain don't want to.
    But those same people would certainly fight for Britain if it was attacked, much due to the fact that they like all of us wouldn't have a choice.

    Also there is the thing about not wanting to be involved with violence and believing that the human life is sacred and that killing is the biggest sin whether you do it professionally or not.

    Of course it's wrong what these idiots have done, but there are always idiots and always will be.
    Nevertheless, you should choose your words carefully, as Jim has pointed out. The fact that you don't mean to be racist doesn't mean that you are not being exactly that.

    On the other hand, one can raise a question: If so many people in this country (whichever ethnic group or religious group they belong to) hate this country, why not try to change things or move somewhere where they would probably be happier if not necessarily better off.
    This country ain't that bad.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In a poll on the news ONLY 20% of muslims would be happy if a family member was in the British Forces, something like 30% would accept it and the rest would be totally against it!!

    I think that the part that make syour view racist is that you don't compare such feelings with WASPs and other "groups" that make up Britain. You also then talk about "us" "they" "go home" "our country" suggesting that we are not all part of the same entitity, that for some reason Muslims are outside of that.

    Personally, like Kermit, there are 100% of people who wouldn't want a member of their family in the forces. Does that mean I'm not British, not part of this country?
    they want to live in our country and claim our benefits but they are not willing to fight for us??

    1. It's their country too.
    2. Do WASPs claim benefits too?
    How can anyone justify the kidnapping of a fellow muslim just because he is fighting for HIS country?? (I know this is only a minority who would justify this).

    1. He's fighting fior their country too
    2. The IRA used to kill British soldier on a regular basis...

    I really can't be arsed to get into the rest of the thread but suffice to say that no-one has been convicted of anything yet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :thumb: @ Blagsta
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I don't particularly respect the job the military is doing. Why should I?

    My oldest brother (6 years older than me) joined the army before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started, and is still out there now in Iraq.
    Just consider this for a minute. Was it the military that chose to Invade Iraq??? No, that was the Government. All the military are doing now in Iraq is trying to stop a civil war breaking out.

    I think you're one of those people who'll call for all the troops home straight away and then say it's the governments fault when Iraq goes into a civil war. I don't support the government in this war but I still respect the troops. To say you don't is to piss on the graves of those who have lost their lives and to spit in the faces of their families.

    Let me put my view in perspective for you. I was born and have spent a good deal of my life in Bradford so I know that multiculturalism does exist in a good way. The street I lived on as a kid was one with emphasis on multiculturalism. My neighbours consisted of:
    A Russian Family
    An Irish Family
    A Lebanese Family
    4 Muslim families from different parts of the middle east
    2 Indian families. 1 were Hindu's, the other Sikh's.
    There were also a few singletons in houses etc.

    Our street used to have the occasional arguments common anywhere in the world but most of the time we got on well. We used to play football everyday (we actually had 22 players and a referee in an Islam 11 vs. World 11 format)
    Unfortunately this doesn't run right through society. There is a certain amount of hatred on all sides.

    I think the poll done is pointless. If they'd have asked "if this country was being invaded would you fight to defend it?" they would have got a much better account on 'Britishness.'
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I think you're one of those people who'll call for all the troops home straight away and then say it's the governments fault when Iraq goes into a civil war.

    No, I think he's one of those people who believe the army shouldn't have been there in the first place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that we all agree that they shouldn't be there in the first place but now that they are there what would you have them do?
    It isn't their fault they are there but unfortunately they can't be pulled out now otherwise a civil war would break out and it would be our governments fault.
    If it was possible and I was in power the troops would be home tomorrow. Believe me, there is nothing I would like more than to see my brother alive and well and back home.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I think that we all agree that they shouldn't be there in the first place but now that they are there what would you have them do?
    It isn't their fault they are there but unfortunately they can't be pulled out now otherwise a civil war would break out and it would be our governments fault.
    If it was possible and I was in power the troops would be home tomorrow. Believe me, there is nothing I would like more than to see my brother alive and well and back home.

    Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that the Civil War in Iraq has started some time ago and the troops that are currently in the middle of it can only sit and wait and get killed. I am sorry, but the answer is simple.
    Get the hell out of Dodge!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I think you're one of those people who'll call for all the troops home straight away and then say it's the governments fault when Iraq goes into a civil war.


    I think you're one of those people who makes stupid assumptions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I don't support the government in this war but I still respect the troops. To say you don't is to piss on the graves of those who have lost their lives and to spit in the faces of their families.


    I also think you're one of those people who makes idiotic melodramatic statements.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I think that we all agree that they shouldn't be there in the first place but now that they are there what would you have them do?
    It isn't their fault they are there but unfortunately they can't be pulled out now otherwise a civil war would break out and it would be our governments fault.
    If it was possible and I was in power the troops would be home tomorrow. Believe me, there is nothing I would like more than to see my brother alive and well and back home.

    I also think you're one of those people who can't tell the difference between respecting a particular job someone does and respecting a person. I have nothing against the ordinary grunt that joins the army, I never said I did. Maybe you should read my posts a bit more carefully.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I also think you're one of those people who can't tell the difference between respecting a particular job someone does and respecting a person. I have nothing against the ordinary grunt that joins the army, I never said I did. Maybe you should read my posts a bit more carefully.

    Originally Posted by Blagsta
    I don't particularly respect the job the military is doing. Why should I?

    I think you should read your statement again. Then aswer this question, Did the army choose to get sent there? I think the answer you are looking for is No. They did not choose to go there but they are there due to 2 certain politicians, one on each side of the atlantic.
    They do not have a choice in the matter of where they go. Refusing to go to war when you are in the army leads to courtmarshal, or maybe you don't know this. The job they are doing right now is trying to keep a country from going into a civil war that is so close to really breaking out. That job is one I respect but the question is do you respect it?

    According to your above statement you do not, and that I believe is being disrespectful to the men and women in the army, all those who have died so far and their families.
    You can call it an idiotic melodramatic statement as much as you want, but it is not as idiotic as the statement you made that has brought about this debate.
    I made 1 wrong assumption and I can hold my hands up and admit that. Can you admit that you made 3 wrong assumptions?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What are you on about?

    I suggest you think about the difference between respecting the job they are doing (seeing as I disgaree with it, its kind of hard for me to respect it) and disrespecting someone as a person.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, you disagree with the war itself and not the job the Military are now doing. Your displacing your feelings from where they should truly be aimed at (the Government) to people who have no choice in the matter (the Military).
    The job they are doing now is down to the Government and not down to the Military. They are now trying to stop an all out civil war from breaking out in a country they shouldn't be in, but are thanks to certain pricks in government. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place (Iraq or locked up with rapists, thieves, thugs and murderers is their choice). I respect the job they are doing but not the reason they are in Iraq.

    Now as for the last question I asked in the last post, I am going to restate it because you dodged it. I have admitted that I made 1 wrong assumption about you. Can you admit that you made 3 wrong assumptions about me?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Somehow I feel that if the generals had told the defence secretary and the PM where to stick it that there wouldn't have been a war, so don't kid yourself that they had no choice.

    A grunt, no, NCO's probably not, junior officers, maybe not, but if anyone in command had balls there wouldn't have been a war in iraq
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    Somehow I feel that if the generals had told the defence secretary and the PM where to stick it that there wouldn't have been a war, so don't kid yourself that they had no choice.

    Probably wouldn't be a democracy either...
    A grunt, no, NCO's probably not, junior officers, maybe not, but if anyone in command had balls there wouldn't have been a war in iraq

    possibly not, though I'm not convinced that the military deciding to take over UK Government foreign policy is that much of a good thing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It wouldn't necessarily have been a military coup.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    No, you disagree with the war itself and not the job the Military are now doing.

    The two cannot be seperated.
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    Your displacing your feelings from where they should truly be aimed at (the Government) to people who have no choice in the matter (the Military).

    Yes, thanks for telling me what I feel. :rolleyes:
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    The job they are doing now is down to the Government and not down to the Military.

    No shit, Sherlock.
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    They are now trying to stop an all out civil war from breaking out in a country they shouldn't be in, but are thanks to certain pricks in government. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place (Iraq or locked up with rapists, thieves, thugs and murderers is their choice).

    I mostly agree with this.
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I respect the job they are doing but not the reason they are in Iraq.

    This is where we differ. Seeing as I disagreed with going into Iraq in the first place, for me now to respect it would be absurd. That does not however mean that I have no respect for ordinary working class lads who join the army to gain a trade, see the world etc
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    Now as for the last question I asked in the last post, I am going to restate it because you dodged it. I have admitted that I made 1 wrong assumption about you. Can you admit that you made 3 wrong assumptions about me?

    I haven't got a clue what you're on about here I'm afraid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    It wouldn't necessarily have been a military coup.

    What else would you call the military refusing to obey the orders of the civilian Govt?

    It doesn't have to be tanks rolling in the streets for it to be a coup.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For your information I am not talking about the Generals. Very few of these actually go into the warzone. I am talking about your everyday soldier, those who don't have the choice.
    The Generals can go fuck themselves in my opinion. They did have the power to not send our troops to Iraq and they didn't. They are jobs within the Military that I don't respect. I do respect the soldiers that are out there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    I do respect the soldiers that are out there.


    Which is not the same as respecting the job they are doing. Which was my point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I haven't got a clue what you're on about here I'm afraid.

    Posted by Blagsta:
    1. I also think you're one of those people who can't tell the difference between respecting a particular job someone does and respecting a person. I have nothing against the ordinary grunt that joins the army, I never said I did. Maybe you should read my posts a bit more carefully.
    2. I also think you're one of those people who makes idiotic melodramatic statements.
    3. I think you're one of those people who makes stupid assumptions.

    Now do you see??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're not making much sense tbh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What else would you call the military refusing to obey the orders of the civilian Govt?

    It doesn't have to be tanks rolling in the streets for it to be a coup.
    I didn't say they had to point blank refuse, but a bit of basic resistance would have gone a long way to averting this whole mess.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Which is not the same as respecting the job they are doing. Which was my point.

    A soldier is a form of job within the army and if you read the post within context you would see that I am referring to this form of the word soldier. This means that I am respecting the job they are doing.
    I also have respect for the people but this was not what I was referring to.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    A soldier is a form of job within the army and if you read the post within context you would see that I am referring to this form of the word soldier. This means that I am respecting the job they are doing.
    I also have respect for the people but this was not what I was referring to.

    You seem a tad confused.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    You're not making much sense tbh.

    I am making enough sense to explain it a 4 year old to be completely honest.

    You made 3 wrong assumptions about me and you can't even admit that you were wrong in making those assumptions.

    I guess that makes me a bigger man than you because I can admit I am wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How were they wrong? They're based on what you posted. Are you now retracting what you wrote?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    You seem a tad confused.

    Your meaning of the word soldier from an english dictionary:

    1. One who serves in an army.
    2. An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer.
    3. An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.
    4. a. A sexually undeveloped form of certain ants and termites, having large heads and powerful jaws.
    b. One of a group of honeybees that swarm in defense of a hive.

    intr.v. sol·diered, sol·dier·ing, sol·diers
    1. To be or serve as a soldier.
    2. To make a show of working in order to escape punishment.

    The ones in bold, while speaking about people also mean a job and can be used as such. The same as a person can be a builder, a plumber, a copper etc. They are references to JOBS and not just people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    How were they wrong? They're based on what you posted. Are you now retracting what you wrote?

    No I am retracting my 1 wrong assumption of you for the FOURTH time of saying it.
    Mine was based on what you posted but I can admit I am wrong or have made a mistake.
    You obviously can not. Otherwise you would have done the first or second time I brought this to your attention and not kept saying things like, and I quote: "You're not making much sense tbh." Or how about "I haven't got a clue what you're on about here I'm afraid."
    You knew exactly what I was on about. I've think you are intelligent enough to know exactly what I was on about and this was nothing but evasion tactics.
    If you honestly did not know then it is you who seems to be a tad confused.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ghost18 wrote: »
    Your meaning of the word soldier from an english dictionary:

    1. One who serves in an army.
    2. An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer.
    3. An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.
    4. a. A sexually undeveloped form of certain ants and termites, having large heads and powerful jaws.
    b. One of a group of honeybees that swarm in defense of a hive.

    intr.v. sol·diered, sol·dier·ing, sol·diers
    1. To be or serve as a soldier.
    2. To make a show of working in order to escape punishment.

    The ones in bold, while speaking about people also mean a job and can be used as such. The same as a person can be a builder, a plumber, a copper etc. They are references to JOBS and not just people.

    Yes. And? :confused:

    You're not making any sense.

    Look, here is my position again - I don't respect the job they are doing (because I disagree with it), but I respect ordinary soldiers (as people) who joined up to gain a trade, see the world etc. Officers I have less respect for.

    Understand?
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