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British or not????

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote: »
    No it isn't, it's totally unacceptable. Who gets to decide what is "British culture?" And if I don't agree, I have to "fuck off and be part of someone else's culture?" That's a complete crock of shit. If my son or daughter wanted to join the armed forces and fight I'd be completely devastated, and if that's what it means to be British then I'm not interested. Why does the fact some people who are also Muslims feel this way relevant, unless it's some kind of anti-Islam rant?

    exactly.

    I dont see why Islam has anything to do with it.

    LOADS of people would never fight for Britain. Its got nothing to do with creed/colour/religion or whether you would ever need the benefits system or the NHS ever.
    We pay taxes for that, its got nothing to do with whether we`d be prepared to die for the government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    Now just to clarify, because ommision is as good as racism apparently, I am not saying that all muslims only come here because we have benefits and they think they can sponge forever. What I'm saying is that when someone joins your community, your culture, you want some evidence that they're giving back, that they enjoy the culture in all it's glory, not just for the benefits (like a team physio). Training for a sports team is hard work, you get cold, you get muddy, you get angry, you get shouted at, you get it right, you get it wrong, and you get a physio and a doctor right there if you need them. All I would want from a team member, is evidence of effort at training, not just taking advantage.

    And as such, I think what lickalotapuss, and many like him want, is evidence that the muslim [feel free to insert variant] community are making an effort to take part of bits of british culture. Being british is not loving everything and believing everything you could ever possibly list about what british is (and I personally believe that's not possible so multi-faceted is it) it's loving and believing parts of it, wanting to improve others, wanting to stop others, and having no opinion on yet more parts of it.

    Youre assuming that theyve "come here" from somewhere.

    Us & them
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well im British, happy to live here and claim benefits if I need them, but they can fuck off if they think ill fight for them or go to war.

    Im not surprised a lot of British muslims wouldnt want to join the British Army, as half the time it seems like theyd be pitched against their parents or grandparents country.
    Best to just not join tbh.

    :yes:

    Maybe in their culture joining a military, or something like that is wrong?

    I mean you wouldn't get British Buddhists joining either probably, or Jains.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think there is definatley more than one argument going off in here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    nah, theres just some people who dont get it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    i think the whole point really is that there shouldn’t be a Muslim community, they split British into different communities with different views, if we was to just have a British Community then surly there wouldn’t be a problem with people integrating into the country?

    You can still have communities and integrate as well. I go to university alongside Muslims (my campus is majoritively black working class) and we're perfectly civil.

    It's about people with different needs too. Yeah Muslim people tend to hang around together, as do the people from the Jewish society, as do people from the SWP, as do the rockers... It's all about having things in common. If religion is the centre of your life then you want to be around people who feel the same, you want that good vibe and of course access to a place of worship, the foods, the music, the social side of it.

    I'm not saying I don't think ghettoisation is a good thing, but much more needs to be done with educating people about different cultures rather than people making assumptions by what they've read in comic books like The Sun. It should be the work of the Muslim community to send people out to educate in schools, as with the Hindu community, as with the Sikh community and so on. It should be the work of everybody to facilitate understanding and access to information.

    The problem with people not integrating is as much to do with the rest of society as communities.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    nah, theres just some people who dont get it.

    Well from what I gather one aregument is "why shouldn't Muslims want to be in the forces" and the other is "why do some people from different cultures (muslims etc) slate our country but stay here"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just from the News last night regarding the terror raids on people suspected of plotting the kidnap and torture of a British born Muslim soldier!!
    In a poll on the news ONLY 20% of muslims would be happy if a family member was in the British Forces, something like 30% would accept it and the rest would be totally against it!!
    This really gets to me and I'm no racist but why do they want to live in our country and claim our benefits but they are not willing to fight for us??
    How can anyone justify the kidnapping of a fellow muslim just because he is fighting for HIS country?? (I know this is only a minority who would justify this).
    That poll scares me slightly though, you live in our country you should be willing to fight for our country!!
    Discuss or flame me, I'm willing to change my views if someone can convince me I'm in the wrong for thinking like this!!

    How is fighting in Iraq, fighting for our country?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    How is fighting in Iraq, fighting for our country?

    this isnt a debate on what we think of Iraq so this not turn it into one?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    How is fighting in Iraq, fighting for our country?

    Because our government is a warmongering interventionist one, at a guess?

    Fighting to defend our country on the other hand, well we haven't had to do that for decades...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    How is fighting in Iraq, fighting for our country?
    Its a fight against extremists and terrorism!! Remember London bombings anyone?? Twin Towers?? Its all a fight against one common thing - Terrorism, which is a fight for our country IMO.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Look SOPHIA, think what the fuck you like about me!! I'm not into politics and that and a few people in this thread have described what I was going on about a hell of a lot better than I have.
    Just pisses me off how we can have people in our country are allegedly going to kidnap and murder another british muslim because hes in the armed forces. And basically what I'm saying is "why the fuck are these people in our country if they hate the British so much?? And why don't they just fuck off". They don't fuck off cos we're a good country who give them the nice things in life when there out of work, unable to work through illness/injury and like someone said I believe they should give something back rather than fight against us.

    What if they're British? Where are they going to fuck off to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its a fight against extremists and terrorism!! Remember London bombings anyone?? Twin Towers?? Its all a fight against one common thing - Terrorism, which is a fight for our country IMO.

    What did the twin towers have to do with Iraq?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Our country.

    To me that 'our' applies to anyone that wants to be an active part of it, someone who will usually respect other citizens and have a reasonable level of support and respect for it's institutions.

    We have a Church of England, so some respect for Christianity (although that doesn't mean you have to be Christian, just not attack people who are), we have a democracy, so some respect for that, we have armed forces, so some respect for anyone that choses to fight for them.

    Edit: The above is no a definitive list, but some examples.

    I'm not saying anyone should be a puppet, but a little respect goes a long way.

    I suspect the reason racism is being dragged into this again, and the reason that Muslims are coming across in a bad light is that unfortunately the tiny minority of Muslims who have extreme views and attitudes are very vocal about them which makes it hard for anyone to see the clearer fairer picture.


    I have no respect for our government or politicians. Does that mean I should fuck off somewhere else?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    this isnt a debate on what we think of Iraq so this not turn it into one?

    Well, yes it is in some respects. The issue of Iraq is one of the major things that is pissing off a lot of Muslims and pushing them into the arms of the fundy nutters.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What did the twin towers have to do with Iraq?

    That argument could go on for years (well, let's face it, it has). But the question is, should someone who disagrees with the government's policy on, for example, the war, still respect the job the military is doing out of a sense of Britishness? Similarly, should someone who disagrees with the UK government's policy on drugs still respect the police force for the job they do? And is the opinion of someone from "another culture" on these issues, as valid as "native Brits?"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That argument could go on for years (well, let's face it, it has). But the question is, should someone who disagrees with the government's policy on, for example, the war, still respect the job the military is doing out of a sense of Britishness? Similarly, should someone who disagrees with the UK government's policy on drugs still respect the police force for the job they do? And is the opinion of someone from "another culture" on these issues, as valid as "native Brits?"


    I don't particularly respect the job the military is doing. Why should I?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    I don't particularly respect the job the military is doing. Why should I?

    Out of a sense of Britishness? I dunno, I agree with you. I was just trying to outline what I think the debate is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But the question is, should someone who disagrees with the government's policy on, for example, the war, still respect the job the military is doing out of a sense of Britishness? Similarly, should someone who disagrees with the UK government's policy on drugs still respect the police force for the job they do?

    no absolutely not, this kind of blind loyalty and patriotism is exactly what hitler's youth was about for example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what the hell is a sense of britishness?

    I personally see it as an appreciation of Monty Python more than a general support of the military.
    I dont see why someone from another country that comes here should be obliged to support the military any more than I do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Out of a sense of Britishness? I dunno, I agree with you. I was just trying to outline what I think the debate is.

    What is a sense of Britishness? Surely its many things to many people? I agree that dividing people up because of race/culture is not particularly healthy for society, but what do I have in common with Prince Harry? I have more in common with some Muslims than I do with the Royal Family, for example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its a fight against extremists and terrorism!! Remember London bombings anyone?? Twin Towers?? Its all a fight against one common thing - Terrorism, which is a fight for our country IMO.

    i really cant be arsed to type a lengthy responce so i'll keep it simple for you.

    shut up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What if they're British? Where are they going to fuck off to?
    If "they" (referring to the extremists against britain) have being born here and are British they shoudn't be involved in terrorism against Britain in the first place.
    People from this country go over to Pakistan to learn how to be terrorists in terrorist training camps, if they hate britain so much they should fucking stay there and plot there terror activitys from over there instead of living in our community and trying to destroy it from the inside.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I personally see it as an appreciation of Monty Python more than a general support of the military.
    I dont see why someone from another country that comes here should be obliged to support the military any more than I do.

    Well that's what I'm saying. I mean if you're born here, it seems you can have whatever the fuck opinion you want on anything to do with Britain, but if you're one of "them" (frequently muslims in the present climate - often born here ironically) and you carry a dislike of an aspect of British culture, or political policy, the people who support that policy will come out with all this bullshit about you "not respecting British culture" and "if you dislike it so much, go home." I don't know how much of this is thinly veiled racism, and how much of it is trying to avoid actually talking about the issues by discrediting the opposition in the debate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If "they" (referring to the extremists against britain) have being born here and are British they shoudn't be involved in terrorism against Britain in the first place.
    People from this country go over to Pakistan to learn how to be terrorists in terrorist training camps, if they hate britain so much they should fucking stay there and plot there terror activitys from over there instead of living in our community and trying to destroy it from the inside.

    I tend to agree with you on that tbh, although probably not for the same reasons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well that's what I'm saying. I mean if you're born here, it seems you can have whatever the fuck opinion you want on anything to do with Britain, but if you're one of "them" (frequently muslims in the present climate - often born here ironically) and you carry a dislike of an aspect of British culture, or political policy, the people who support that policy will come out with all this bullshit about you "not respecting British culture" and "if you dislike it so much, go home." I don't know how much of this is thinly veiled racism, and how much of it is trying to avoid actually talking about the issues by slandering the opposition in the debate.


    A bit of both I think.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The term British is almost totally meaningless in terms of culture and shared values, and I dont think I'd like to live in a country where everyone shared the same values, sounds a bit boring to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    The term British is almost totally meaningless in terms of culture and shared values, and I dont think I'd like to live in a country where everyone shared the same values, sounds a bit boring to me.
    I think so too.
    From my point of view its about people living in this country, getting the good from this country but using terrorism and fighting against it from the inside.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    What if they're British? Where are they going to fuck off to?

    thats a simple one, if someone is British and if found Guilty of terrorism Against the UK then they should be taken out and shot, simple that one
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    thats a simple one, if someone is British and if found Guilty of terrorism Against the UK then they should be taken out and shot, simple that one

    So terror is OK if its the sanctioned by the state?
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