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Yes they come in in groups and i know they are from there as i have seen them outside thier caravans making a mess!
If I live in a small village and there is one family of Asians there and I consider them to be rude then the following proposition may have some merit:
-Asian people living in this village are rude
The proposition:
-Asian people are rude
Is completely ridiculous. Not to say that people do not form opinions in this way, just to say that such opinions have no merit in any scientific or rational sense and I personally judge this is being quite important to whether I value an opinion or not, don't you?
Equally the opinion of half a dozen people on a largely anonymous internet site that gypsies are largely trouble-making criminals should have absolutley no bearing on my opinion, it is not 'evidence' of any serious kind........
did she say ALL of them?
But that was my vast majority experience of black people in my childhood. Does that make it OK for me to be bigoted? Or should I actually use my brain a little bit?
I have answered your question. If you haven't understood my answer, then that's OK, I'll explain it.
As I said - often when travellers actually buy land, they are still not allowed to live on it. So what are they supposed to do? They're screwed every which way. Now if society could find a way to let people live on land they bought, then we wouldn't have this problem. For those that can't afford to buy land, councils should provide sites, just like they provide housing for others. Now we could get into a discussion about there not being enough housing provided if you like. Fancy it?
See, this is exactly the sort of shit (pun intended) that travelling people have to put up with.
So you know exactly who is shoplifting and where they live? Have you reported this to the police?
Pretty much, yes.
People still complain because they are bigots.
No, people complain because they are resistant to change. If they were going to build a shopping centre near the village and the residents get pissed off, what are they now? You seriously think all sixty residents are bigots? I think you're generalising now.
Stop using the racist/bigot stuff.
What on earth has building a shopping centre got to do with it?
To those that have mentioned it, the truth is this thread has remained open so that the issues involved can actually be discussed. It's obviously sad and disappointing to see so much bigotry, hatred, and unpleasantness being directed towards a group in society from normal rational users of the boards.
However people are challenging that perspective and the fact that it needs to be challenged does give some value to a thread, no matter the very unpleasant undertow of bigotry.
If people want to give their personal experiences then that's fine - and thankfully most people are making it clear that's what they are doing. Hopefully this thread will go someway to challenging viewpoints of a whole social group based on the behaviour of small groups from that group.
So, yes, to those that have reported it, we are watching this thread, and yes we are continually close to ending it - but I have real trouble seeing how these issues can be debated without bigotry being obvious, given it is such a wide spread and cancerous viewpoint within society at large.
I would hope people will come away from this thread with at least some thing to consider about their own views, even if they are extremely unlikely to ever admit that on this thread.
LacyMay referred to residents complaining about the gypsy site being built. You called them bigots for complaining. They're not bigots. They would complain if shoppers "swamped their village" to get to a newly built shopping centre, just as they are complaining about gypsies "swamping their village" or for any other major change to their village.
If the gypsies were there illegally good on the farmer. Fair play.
Not really any easy answer. You don't think Sikhs should be above the law, do you think gypsies should be above the law?
If gypsies purchase land and wish to reside on it they should have to go through the proper planning procedures. In some cases where gypsies have bought land they have built on it - destroying sections of the green belt.
In this example, some of the gypsies lived at the site for three years. Hardly a travelling lifestyle?
There's a reason that the value of a house will plummet if gypsies set up camp on a nearby field. Rows of caravans in fields are an eyesore for starters. And lets face it, there aren't many people who will speak glowingly of gypsies and be thrilled at the prospect of gypsies on the field over the road. (Although, I do not think this hostility is entirely justified).
Absolutely not. If gypsies need assistance with housing they should receive exactly the same assistance as that offered to any non-gypsy. Why should the taxpayer subsidise gypsies lifestyles?
So it doesn't matter if 99% of gypsies are 'thieving pikies' (and I don't think they are) because you deal with them in the way that any other criminal is dealt with. The rest of the time, the rest of the gypsies should be dealt with as society should treat anyone else, which means ensuring they have proper housing etc, etc.
As I said on another thread tolerance isn't tolerance if you only tolerates those lifestyles you agree with...
So spraying someone with shit, risking them being infected with hepatitis, salmonella etc, is a proportionate response is it?
I never claimed to be consistent.
And then they get refused.
Have they? You only have the word of "People living near Dale Farm" for that.
So? What business is it of yours?
House prices only plummet because there is prejudice against gypsies.
Whether something is an eyesore or not is a value judgement.
Mostly because there is prejudice against gypsies.
i.e., not a lot.
Why not? If as a society we house people, why shouldn't we provide sites? They're cheaper than housing.
Originally Posted by Disillusioned View Post
If gypsies purchase land and wish to reside on it they should have to go through the proper planning procedures.
So, are you talking from actual experience and facts here? Because the statistics I'm looking at say 72% of gypsies live on authorised sites. The majority are obviously getting it right.
I'm speaking from what I hear from people and from some remembered news reports. There is a big lack of authorised sites, with some councils not having any.
I'm saying that if as a society, we have a duty to house people who find it difficult to do so themselves, then we should also provide accomodation provision for people with travelling lifestyles. I am additionally saying that there is not very much help for people who require housing and even less provision of sites for travellers.
http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk/issues.htm
Well there you go then.
Big lack of unauthorised sites, but 72% are authorised.
Our criticisms and objections are also based on stories, experience and news reports. We're not racist or bigots.
Yes, there is obviously a problem. But I bet around 72% of people are not.
Not really, as said by Dis, they should be entitled to the same benefits and housing help as everyone else. Why should they get special treatment?
If I wanted to live a nice quiet life in country and claimed that was my lifestyle should they house me like that?
RE your comment about do I know how long council lists are, since I have lived in both council and housing association houses and been on the lists myself, yes I do - do they suck? Yes. But that's how it works at the moment and everyone should get treated the same... what do people expect for free?
Yes, leaving 30% with nowhere to go.
If you draw conclusions about a group of people based on a very limited experience, you are bigoted.
http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk/issues.htm
And, the leader of Basildon District Council (see original link).
Just an observation really. If a gypsy/traveller does not want to live the travelling lifestyle and wishes to settle permanently somewhere why can't they integrate with society and live with everybody else?
You're saying prejudice is the only reason? (It's one reason admittedly but there are many more reasons).
The vast majority of people consider a field full of caravans an eyesore.
I don't think the State should be in the business of buying land for people to live their alternative lifestyle. If New Age Travellers, Irish Travellers and gypsies want to separate themselves from the rest of society I don't see why the government should subsidise them. I support equal support from the government to all social/ethnic groups.
Leaving aside the appalling state of housing benefits services and social housing, why should they be forced to conform to living in a house? It brings into play wider issues about who gets to say what lifestyles are acceptable in society.
Don't be pathetic. Not the same thing is it?
So it sucks and people should just put up with it, yes?
Hmmmmm. Councils usually have no such problems allowing building if its gonna line someone's pockets.
Living on site is very different from living in a house.
Its a fairly major reason, yes.
Do they? Have you asked them? Anyway, so what? Most of us don't get to pick and choose our visual environment. I consider big advertising billboards to be an eyesore (and lots of people agree with me).
Can a culture which is hundreds of years old, be said to be an "alternative lifestyle"?
Anyone spot the glaring contradiction?
They don't get away with it as i stop them and the CLAIM to have not realised. Security know who they are also and that they do it so when they can they watch them. What they do about it i don't know.
But thats not really my point. From the only experience i have of them in our area they steal to live and leave the place a mess. Dispite there being a site for them within less than a mile away.
I am not saying all are the same as with everything theres good and bad. But i am saying MY experience is that the ones round here are the bad.
Fairynuff. Although tbh, I don't really give a toss about shoplifting from supermarkets. Fair play to 'em.